From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,MIME_QP_LONG_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 16529 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2023 09:00:53 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Jan 2023 09:00:53 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBA624254F; Wed, 4 Jan 2023 19:00:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from pb-smtp2.pobox.com (pb-smtp2.pobox.com [64.147.108.71]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0502D4254B for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2023 19:00:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: from pb-smtp2.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp2.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12EAA16483E; Wed, 4 Jan 2023 04:00:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from joseph@josephholsten.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=pobox.com; h= content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject :date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; s=sasl; bh=xHWmHS 1K/KfsMbTnIob79B3urloYgnmSO5XO79IHMZg=; b=ycgPrm8MZ3zJysXtcmKPBZ Gw5MEjph+/vKT0Pq1n7+9GJW64Tunbg6QhnN36OUftFeipyCvaZCWVxbWLqb96/F PakRl0gQkQXOSaIflKUDANtn4jxkHNFYTrWWjjPc1krjfJJh+yNW0dc9icwmj6qH PQIwzt/vSvi/Xv0wH4gUA= Received: from pb-smtp2.nyi.icgroup.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp2.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A3EB16483D; Wed, 4 Jan 2023 04:00:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from joseph@josephholsten.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=josephholsten.com; h=content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; s=mesmtp; bh=xHWmHS1K/KfsMbTnIob79B3urloYgnmSO5XO79IHMZg=; b=nMcLrJ83zSKZjkuDsuyFbFAG4YY0iCp75UhV/54GoXInH5LHH14ubWw1bPJhS7zfiP39gy8s51U58zU4yIdJVKiuKkJ6ZXMmfvjqWHJ36FsCMiqOyR3XRdPiHBellJdmVUEosN8Se8hMjP43Xnqc6T5V3tlOVSgiYZ0+IxQ9+Sg= Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [98.59.217.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pb-smtp2.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 638B316483C; Wed, 4 Jan 2023 04:00:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from joseph@josephholsten.com) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-D769D010-DAD0-4CF6-9F7D-A9DA021CA173 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Joseph Holsten Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 01:00:25 -0800 Message-Id: <2BD6F8CE-4EE3-49E1-9780-6BE299AD4BCA@josephholsten.com> References: <202301022358.302NwiKJ492165@darkstar.fourwinds.com> In-Reply-To: <202301022358.302NwiKJ492165@darkstar.fourwinds.com> To: Jon Steinhart X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (20C65) X-Pobox-Relay-ID: 4178FB7A-8C0E-11ED-B2B0-307A8E0A682E-15777318!pb-smtp2.pobox.com Message-ID-Hash: RQ7JOFCTVHH3VPYBHK2UYU6PYJ5EVKJN X-Message-ID-Hash: RQ7JOFCTVHH3VPYBHK2UYU6PYJ5EVKJN X-MailFrom: joseph@josephholsten.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: A few comments on porting the Bourne shell List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --Apple-Mail-D769D010-DAD0-4CF6-9F7D-A9DA021CA173 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jan 2, 2023, at 15:59, Jon Steinhart wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFsegaloco via TUHS writes: >> I think that's a good point that scripting problems may be >> a symptom of the nature of the tools being used in them. >=20 > To the best of my recollection, scripting languages were originally > intended and used for the automation of repetitive personal tasks; > making it easier for users who found themselves typing the same > stuff over and over again. Somewhere along the line people forgot > how to use a compiler and began writing large systems in a variety > of roughly equivalent but incompatible interpreted languages.=20 I used to think this was a somewhat modern thing, at least evident by atroci= ties performed by tcl & perl in the 1990s. But exposure to this group of wei= rdos has made me realize that somewhat terrifying amounts of =E2=80=9Cinfras= tructure=E2=80=9D code is built on little languages like awk or ed scripts. A= nd that any criticism of the horrible things I use Ruby for today only reall= y defends the place for awk and sed that those now hold and where they truly= excel. But then I read https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/qed.html > For a brief period in the 1970s, the GECOS QED served us as a scripting la= nguage; it was in some ways analogous to the Awk or Perl of today. It was us= ed for such tasks as submitting batch jobs, formatting files for the printer= , collecting statistics on a file. A collection of macros to do various usef= ul tasks was put in a commonly available place. I truly hope in my heart of hearts that ken had no inkling that someday QED w= ould be used as the scripting language to power http://www.qef.com/html/quic= kref.html. Not that QEF is bad, just that any stones thrown at =E2=80=9Cyou s= houldn=E2=80=99t use $lang for that!=E2=80=9D feel like they must only strik= e via ricochet off QEF. I can only imagine the shock and horror Larry McVoy would experience if one o= f his team suggested replacing make with QEF.=20= --Apple-Mail-D769D010-DAD0-4CF6-9F7D-A9DA021CA173 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Jan 2, 2= 023, at 15:59, Jon Steinhart <jon@fourwinds.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFsegalo= co via TUHS writes:
I think that's= a good point that scripting problems may be
a symptom of the nature of the tools being used in t= hem.

To the best of my recollectio= n, scripting languages were originally
intended and used for= the automation of repetitive personal tasks;
making it easi= er for users who found themselves typing the same
stuff over= and over again.  Somewhere along the line people forgot
how to use a compiler and began writing large systems in a variety<= br>of roughly equivalent but incompatible interpreted languages. =

I used to think this was a somewhat m= odern thing, at least evident by atrocities performed by tcl & perl in t= he 1990s. But exposure to this group of weirdos has made me realize that som= ewhat terrifying amounts of =E2=80=9Cinfrastructure=E2=80=9D code is built o= n little languages like awk or ed scripts. And that any criticism of the hor= rible things I use Ruby for today only really defends the place for awk and s= ed that those now hold and where they truly excel.


<= div>> http://www.qef.com/html/quickref.html. No= t that QEF is bad, just that any stones thrown at =E2=80=9Cyou shouldn=E2=80= =99t use $lang for that!=E2=80=9D feel like they must only strike via ricoch= et off QEF.

I can only imagine the shock and horror= Larry McVoy would experience if one of his team suggested replacing make wi= th QEF. 
= --Apple-Mail-D769D010-DAD0-4CF6-9F7D-A9DA021CA173--