From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 10319 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2022 06:06:44 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 11 Jan 2022 06:06:44 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id DC5829C1E4; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 16:06:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 121FE9C0CA; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 16:06:18 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=johnlabovitz.com header.i=@johnlabovitz.com header.b="gt07NSyf"; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.b="CyBvcI22"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0674A9C0CA; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 16:06:15 +1000 (AEST) X-Greylist: delayed 379 seconds by postgrey-1.36 at minnie.tuhs.org; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 16:06:14 AEST Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 368D59C0BE for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 16:06:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B7A3200E89 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 00:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 11 Jan 2022 00:59:55 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= johnlabovitz.com; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; s=fm2; bh=TwCySiEJIdxiTsfrZI5CMe3sH5X3Yk8tg274aV3rHOw=; b=gt07N SyfUZ2H9WijizB3oMKJNgPZCyghTwpGWsYTifPq/noM6euH7iGOj4SYwOvk9z5Er aWO4IjihUYGom7Qinh8LOWS11RhlVzdAnbT6r+NA+Tc0qusvxG/3TreKuGMfESFG kwwuiz7IalNE9fQnM6jniAJksysjuOnTuZQJ5GMGJcEQFN93Ih85Ec839XWjmLtT 1Axr2yg54HAF0slA/NAF+Y3ep7+D5tvcRyMeUDtCHazQ/BG3DVi1dSAxwfTZrRvf ASR0j2BtH3ROudP94kaMA3scgV8qh8BrYi1KKUcv3XeERus7BvuiciJTtaPkDAIr PhBzt3CdeKwDYXJGg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=TwCySiEJIdxiTsfrZI5CMe3sH5X3Yk8tg274aV3rH Ow=; b=CyBvcI22i56OFCyH72xFv2VaoB0SawcVwmqmEU+/lmhFlC1POzmr96SNM cRilXt5eyBoF/4H5MdHI6wLQMLnYxUoju4AYE7XtHAUEUQDMEb3t7nqRHPXJU73Y vs9WthU5XCkmnk8nOHptlUFNX9gcCbjkibSd2r3xTdCEUoSv/gRv1Y5Cjf+v0mqy bQokCIvgFX1xqTs6tr7nmsNpBpcsub6BTuObDkXfvisKAKdgmbMr2P4rC9Xrhpum IU2dJGHobQBFEHB8WjSKbefG1D5ThYpsEJItsJeSYhg5KqjL6z87xND0m4gMdn+x u5CRqbzoLbnEL0EPhHbb2Tkb4CPcA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudehvddgkeelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhephfgtgfgguffffhfvjgfkofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomheplfhohhhn ucfnrggsohhvihhtiicuoehjohhhnhhlsehjohhhnhhlrggsohhvihhtiidrtghomheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepteefteekffffgfduveeuffegvedvtefffeetkeeuudevuedt hefffedvhfelgeevnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepjhhohhhnlhesjhhohhhnlhgrsghovhhithiirdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 00:59:54 -0500 (EST) From: John Labovitz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 00:59:53 -0500 References: <20211231234039.GU31637@mcvoy.com> <20220101005605.GL75481@eureka.lemis.com> <20220101031511.GB8135@mcvoy.com> <20220111015901.GE25103@eureka.lemis.com> <4409b91cd794867d@orthanc.ca> <20220111024218.GE3441@mcvoy.com> <20220111051247.GC61872@eureka.lemis.com> To: TUHS main list In-Reply-To: <20220111051247.GC61872@eureka.lemis.com> Message-Id: <2EEA85B6-825C-4C49-AE69-114A41038098@johnlabovitz.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Subject: Re: [TUHS] Demise of TeX and groff (was: roff(7)) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Jan 11, 2022, at 00:12, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > For a time perspective, this was 1987, before O'Reilly and Associates > was founded. But the macros they (also, primarily, Dale Dougherty) > described there are the basis for the macros they used at ORA when I > started writing for them in 1993. Some time round the turn of the > millennium they then migrated to DocBook, at least for the author > interface. I think that they had some magic to then convert it to > groff. So I don't think it was "too late"; the DocBook conversion > suggests that the authors didn't like groff, though I thought that the > conversion was a retrograde step. I think I can help fill out this puzzle. I started working for = O=E2=80=99Reilly (specifically, for Dale) in late 1993, around the time = the *roff -> DocBook/SGML transition was happening. I was hired to help = develop Global Network Navigator, the first commercial website. = Initially I created the first web ads (sorry) and later I was technical = director of GNN. I recall that it wasn=E2=80=99t so much that people =E2=80=98didn=E2=80=99= t like=E2=80=99 groff and its ilk, but that Tim and Dale realized that = the future of publishing was going to be something far beyond simply = print books, and they needed their content to have much more inherent = structure and metadata than was offered by groff markup =E2=80=94 whose = purpose was primarily as a markup language for print. So the solution (as I observed it when I was there) was to translate the = raw groff into a more abstract, structural markup =E2=80=94 namely, SGML = using the DocBook schema =E2=80=94 and then to write conversion tools = that would then re-generate groff, HTML, or something else. (The = web/HTML was not necessarily the only future at that time!) That = workflow also allowed manuscripts to be imported from other platforms = (like Word) from authors who weren=E2=80=99t part of the Unix world, as = O=E2=80=99Reilly branched out from strict Unix manuals into travel, = finance, and other diverse worlds of content. For example, we were able to fairly easily republish the seminal _Whole = Internet Catalog_ book as a major section of the GNN website, using = commercial SGML->HTML tools plus a whole lotta Perl. :) =E2=80=94John=