From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.9 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,URIBL_BLACK autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 1546 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2023 20:40:13 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Jan 2023 20:40:13 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2174259E; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 06:39:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: from ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl (unknown [195.121.94.168]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59B984259A for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 06:39:24 +1000 (AEST) X-KPN-MessageId: faae8f85-a014-11ed-a1d8-005056aba152 Received: from smtp.kpnmail.nl (unknown [10.31.155.40]) by ewsoutbound.so.kpn.org (Halon) with ESMTPS id faae8f85-a014-11ed-a1d8-005056aba152; Sun, 29 Jan 2023 21:39:08 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=planet.nl; s=planet01; h=to:message-id:date:from:subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=qSWRSLA6u7lQfd1Ags/B7P8sDHfdQ8zO6kNhBZYWZCA=; b=Exk91VCabz1yeYGaIH/vevLDUFoFwZm1F6B5MwecA1C67j+7ARn+uZA0tspOROHXQR6W6zvvak+F2 +BDcKqWaNT2bPMaGbTFLyzFbceQ2Pd+eoeCFVnPCxgq5iuY/U5crlmwOgo0YGDccbQ/0DaxNEuCd3r kym5snEGhAcHuRY0= X-KPN-MID: 33|w2v+i+1fYU1imv3H5iyWp73gUWUTmFMv2hq6MEQlpydskdBbvTS306DUbREx+ZZ Sh+Sj6hRaaKHZA85TX4/5aXv44QS8KfdIL61Cls3CywI= X-KPN-VerifiedSender: Yes X-CMASSUN: 33|loPbAs+aTdeRp+b6HpepGJu4Amm6dkw1/QZhQ1BGPfFkhJ1LHA7fYGzdL6hANX0 kdZqSuS8I/gY1E5LNcaH11Q== X-Originating-IP: 77.172.38.96 Received: from smtpclient.apple (77-172-38-96.fixed.kpn.net [77.172.38.96]) by smtp.kpnmail.nl (Halon) with ESMTPSA id fc9ebae8-a014-11ed-927c-005056ab7584; Sun, 29 Jan 2023 21:39:12 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Paul Ruizendaal In-Reply-To: <7wh6w9alam.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 21:39:11 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <34B2F3A7-B2A2-4597-8181-6A291CE3BEB1@planet.nl> References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> <7wpmaz9g2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wh6w9alam.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> To: Lars Brinkhoff X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Message-ID-Hash: 7YXDNVZCGS5H3B7574A4TWDKX4M5VI4F X-Message-ID-Hash: 7YXDNVZCGS5H3B7574A4TWDKX4M5VI4F X-MailFrom: pnr@planet.nl X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > On 29 Jan 2023, at 07:48, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >=20 >>>> I'd like to know what the first versions of X were written in >>> Without the earlier versions' source, it's hard to answer this = question... >>=20 >> V source code exists, right? It seems likely W would have been = written >> in the same language as W. And that early X would also be the same. >> Another source of information would be to ask Bob Scheifler and Jim >> Gettys. >=20 > I asked Bob, and he says W was written in C. Thank you! In the meantime I have also found the thesis of William Nowicki, the = author of VGTS: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA166935.pdf It has a timeline for VGTS in its appendix C. In short, development = begins in 1982 as a carve out of the display routines of a VLSI design = package. It seems to have become usable in 1983 and development = continued into 1984 (Nowicki graduated in March 1985). This places the development of W in 1983 (before that VGTS did not = exist, and by early =E2=80=9984 a Unix version existed). This https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA231239.pdf document from 1990 = claims: "The X Window System has a very alphabetical lineage. The family = originated at Stanford University as the VGTS, or V system, a primitive = networked graphics windowing system. Then Digital Electronic Corporation = desired a more advanced version of V and worked with Stanford University = to develop W. Because of the needs of a networking and windowing project = sponsored by IBM at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MIT = acquired the W system and greatly improved its networking = capabilities.=E2=80=9D The above seems not quite accurate: besides the V / VGTS mixup, Scheifer = writes that W was more a simplification rather than an extension of = VGTS: "VGTS provides graphics windows driven by fairly high-level object = definitions from a structured display file; W provides graphics windows = based on a simple display-list mechanism, with limited functionality. We = acquired a UNIX-based version of W for the VSlOO (with synchronous = communication over TCP produced by [Paul] Asente and Chris Kent at = Digital=E2=80=99s Western Research Laboratory.=E2=80=9D However, the links with DEC that these paragraphs make are interesting. = There is this blog post from Bryan Lunduke = (https://lunduke.substack.com/p/w-the-window-system-before-x-that) makes = a link between the W window system and DEC=E2=80=99s 1984 "VAXstation = Display System Software=E2=80=9D. It is possible that these two pieces = of software are in fact closely related.