From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 1b82e54e for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 05:09:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 2C98F9D782; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 15:09:22 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B0B99D777; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 15:08:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 43F4C9D777; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 15:08:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pf1-f182.google.com (mail-pf1-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F26E9D698 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 15:08:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pf1-f182.google.com with SMTP id o24so2120035pfp.13 for ; Fri, 06 Mar 2020 21:08:39 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:reply-to:subject:to:references:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language; bh=bEbowA6r0AnXJRyGSgtfmWih3zzGXwogNWXRGqIovxI=; b=WHv02fRq9OAX11OHFpTD9dHL+56ML/fgJ3Rj8t5DWPwiWrJCi04GH6I7pHcpHBtn22 LF/SNnoo1QtytSD8qEYN4z2i3EI2dCuQXEFoCQ+iqbAADfas3VtrCJxHKUBosLeellfg a2xfsVmGVY70pq2gZ+2LVKF4NsF3ZMU9+tXjkqYnazQE1iQfsv7D5zywW2bEa/xtheYa 4+pb5MX3i+bTB+qSsYvqOTBNQJLzR3SQGC2LNTOpjhyregwcXnejV8OQtAoGPfet+i9o 4Web42PRIuOwPQpijgGFfVcwB61PwFhoV0L8i+dRHR4oJJt0h0JYNQRxmaLT757OWozk ieTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ0ae1d53lsij1dVriz23l/3DnzVxt2dM4/6B43BK4E+lkJNnqI+ FnJArq+TNMcVSpWpKM20MLCTUF4F X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vuXYR4aZqNLw7pPysa3bnQZObXKMcdCNEgdBiYBjprT9eaDcz4l+obG/D6MdML0mncb/tC/eg== X-Received: by 2002:a63:5011:: with SMTP id e17mr6387677pgb.338.1583557717960; Fri, 06 Mar 2020 21:08:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:601:a000:cb0:559a:b945:3b39:8152? ([2601:601:a000:cb0:559a:b945:3b39:8152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e2sm10828634pjs.25.2020.03.06.21.08.36 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 06 Mar 2020 21:08:36 -0800 (PST) To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org References: <8A3F3334-D8C0-4075-B21B-FEAD709C086D@planet.nl> From: Heinz Lycklama Organization: Open Systems Technology Associates Message-ID: <35979d2e-b4e2-2de7-f84b-ce03c915447b@osta.com> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 21:08:35 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D8F28E7F4A6BE02D8F1CEC20" Content-Language: en-US Subject: Re: [TUHS] First appearance of named pipes X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: heinz@osta.com Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D8F28E7F4A6BE02D8F1CEC20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Clem, you are correct. mknod() was used in the /usr/group standard in 1984. mkfifo() and mkdir() were part of the IEEE Trial Use Standard in 1986, as well as the adopted IEEE Std 1003.1-1988 (POSIX) standard. Heinz On 3/6/2020 1:10 PM, Clem Cole wrote: > BTW:  My memory is that Joy did not like them for some reason, > probably because they were not as sexy as some of the stuff Accent > could do (but that's a guess -- I've forgotten).  So with 4.2, Joy > created Unix domain sockets. > > BTW: a slow cache refresh is occurring in my brain ... I remember one > of the things that there was a lot of arguing/moaning about at the > time was the directionality of such a feature.  Bruce's hack from the > mid-70s was unidirectional and you needed two pipes to go both ways. > > On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 4:06 PM Clem Cole > wrote: > > The first version was from Rand (called "Rand Pipes").   They > certainly were available in the mid-70s on Sixth Edition, you have > to ask someone like Bruce Borden if they were on Fifth.  I think > the code is on one of the 'USENIX' tapes in Warren's archives. > > At this point in time, someone would need to refresh my memory of > the details of Rand's implementation compared to what came in the > USG systems in the 1980s.   For instance, I believe the early > versions used mknod(2) to create the "named entity."   IIRC early > USG did that too, and mkfifo(3) came as part of the POSIX (I have > memories of the discussion at a POSIX meeting, but as I say, I've > forgotten the details). > > IIRC there were differences in buffering behavior, flushing, error > path between USG's later versions and the original Rand, but I'd > have to stare at the code again to remember. > > On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 3:42 PM Paul Ruizendaal > wrote: > > The Luderer paper on distributed Unix has the following paragraph: > > "A new special UNIX interprocess communication mechanism is > the fifo, which provides communication between unrelated > processes by associating a new special file type with a file > name. Since remote fifos are legal, they can be used for > interprocessor communication between S-UNIX machines or > between an S-UNIX machine and an F-UNIX machine.” > > The paper is from late 1981. Maybe I’m especially mud-eyed > today, but I cannot see FIFO’s implemented in V7..V8 or > 4.1xBSD. When did FIFO’s become a standard Unix feature? > > Paul > --------------D8F28E7F4A6BE02D8F1CEC20 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Clem, you are correct. mknod() was used in the /usr/group standard in 1984.
mkfifo() and mkdir() were part of the IEEE Trial Use Standard in 1986, as well
as the adopted IEEE Std 1003.1-1988 (POSIX) standard.

Heinz

On 3/6/2020 1:10 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
BTW:  My memory is that Joy did not like them for some reason, probably because they were not as sexy as some of the stuff Accent could do (but that's a guess -- I've forgotten).  So with 4.2, Joy created Unix domain sockets.

BTW: a slow cache refresh is occurring in my brain ... I remember one of the things that there was a lot of arguing/moaning about at the time was the directionality of such a feature.  Bruce's hack from the mid-70s was unidirectional and you needed two pipes to go both ways.

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 4:06 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
The first version was from Rand (called "Rand Pipes").   They certainly were available in the mid-70s on Sixth Edition, you have to ask someone like Bruce Borden if they were on Fifth.  I think the code is on one of the 'USENIX' tapes in Warren's archives.

At this point in time, someone would need to refresh my memory of the details of Rand's implementation compared to what came in the USG systems in the 1980s.   For instance, I believe the early versions used mknod(2) to create the "named entity."   IIRC early USG did that too, and mkfifo(3) came as part of the POSIX (I have memories of the discussion at a POSIX meeting, but as I say, I've forgotten the details).

IIRC there were differences in buffering behavior, flushing, error path between USG's later versions and the original Rand, but I'd have to stare at the code again to remember.

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 3:42 PM Paul Ruizendaal <pnr@planet.nl> wrote:
The Luderer paper on distributed Unix has the following paragraph:

"A new special UNIX interprocess communication mechanism is the fifo, which provides communication between unrelated processes by associating a new special file type with a file name. Since remote fifos are legal, they can be used for interprocessor communication between S-UNIX machines or between an S-UNIX machine and an F-UNIX machine.”

The paper is from late 1981. Maybe I’m especially mud-eyed today, but I cannot see FIFO’s implemented in V7..V8 or 4.1xBSD. When did FIFO’s become a standard Unix feature?

Paul


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