From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, NICE_REPLY_A,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 14394 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2021 04:13:42 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 9 Feb 2021 04:13:42 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 2F4F29C9EB; Tue, 9 Feb 2021 14:13:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33E149BA47; Tue, 9 Feb 2021 14:13:21 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="mHrGVoBd"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id DB1809BA47; Tue, 9 Feb 2021 14:13:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ot1-f46.google.com (mail-ot1-f46.google.com [209.85.210.46]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 942E99BA43 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2021 14:13:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ot1-f46.google.com with SMTP id 63so16378308oty.0 for ; Mon, 08 Feb 2021 20:13:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=ewUck3Dc+N5KqRY9CsGonBZHKLnzht31DMLiDrsUtFs=; b=mHrGVoBdW6Q/Tej0vjbAO7T32uB4/wWWyDAUKh/r4EwnZLUJ8tc1QOdukFY2jz38Vn OocAYRQJskGE/Uytqm0lRcz8v55lTBge8jr1ThlueQ05waQO7Fn6Tp8nx3DOHFd1YUWM CvvcgRvlL0Gvffc4woZe+DXstA/q5/O7A/B9TeyMskpVeyKLqvSt5LkQLbGFfoENnsCK KgJiZ2kMbvI1ywFldUY4CC9TLmeCCPHpPj9x2jCjy8qtUoWlHVECoJwE3T9UDo9ejVg7 dPqXnCyYjK2gmZI4Ltwk94IMujRg4z/Giy2M+X3VQV0rHGQO54P8sPWMoTVyVkOB/5HE sIiQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=ewUck3Dc+N5KqRY9CsGonBZHKLnzht31DMLiDrsUtFs=; b=H33rLq+DXBjvRiyEP/Trq+uToVX1Dv3Wzu75OukwjvE1uuKW6WFAbpRpo0SW4fL+vR hF6QdIXf22sGIPGww29cyxebrSG2FgC9dnE9lqEzXFs/wQSl0x4rmY6MxsAWwfWL0BFa lNKAnp+8Ht6w9rlPkYwZWN1xndoGrv3MxXi0sTuTIex91zqt8aZLccyjkCaw7RmJHBTe VaWuuVBqkN/gx1u2UOS7K9qnJUZv9v0GkMUH91K9CitB341UHRRpkhLdiaIS2vWQ9T+C 6fCoh0BIR/LV51Bp+NvfBtqjp96XRfkPTillDuYiCDZ0HznoMTg1EL9/YX9M9f5+BWAP HTsA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5324d2W1Q0waAxAIJ/Rskb70YZZHX1JLDHTFzbeH9bhUlUK2mUZc YbOYayw8NfpZv7fn9NtiKf9UIkXirS3+Zw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw9HnjZfo5Hh+zIdwVH2kvCPe6DAD65tiyQjs90P1R4OoXV4cjLDmH+DgaD6GNm/gusrrzt/A== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7c99:: with SMTP id q25mr14411568otn.289.1612843996616; Mon, 08 Feb 2021 20:13:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from terra.local ([12.154.58.98]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t3sm1127942otb.36.2021.02.08.20.13.15 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 08 Feb 2021 20:13:16 -0800 (PST) To: M Douglas McIlroy , tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org References: From: Will Senn Message-ID: <36a5b8f0-bfc0-120e-6226-bc107680e31e@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 22:13:14 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------21E37CC20B1980F5070EF816" Content-Language: en-US Subject: Re: [TUHS] Macs and future unix derivatives X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------21E37CC20B1980F5070EF816 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2/8/21 9:58 PM, M Douglas McIlroy wrote: >> Do they *really* want something which is just V7 Unix, with nothing else? >> No TCP/IP, no hot-plug USB support? No web browsing? >> Oh, you wanted more than that? Feature bloat! Feature bloat! >> Feature bloat! Shame! Shame! Shame! > % ls /usr/share/man/man2|wc > 495 495 7230 > % ls /bin|wc > 2809 2809 30468 > > How many of roughly 500 system calls (to say nothing of uncounted > ioctl's) do you think are necessary for writing those few crucial > capabilities that distinguish Linux from v7? There is > undeniably bloat, but only a sliver of it contributes to the > distinctive utility of today's systems. > > Or consider this. Unix grew by about 39 system calls in its first > decade, but an average of 40 > per decade ever since. Is this accelerated growth more symptomatic of > maturity or of cancer? > > Doug I couldn't have said it better. I was looking at 'man syscalls' and shaking my head just a couple of days ago. I also just thought, hey, wouldn't it be nice to get a printed copy of the latest manpages - uh, that ain't gonna happen - 3000+ manpages, sheesh. Not sure I was thinking 'man widget_toolbar' would provide me with any deep insights anyway, maybe that's why its in mann. Will --------------21E37CC20B1980F5070EF816 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 2/8/21 9:58 PM, M Douglas McIlroy wrote:
Do they *really* want something which is just V7 Unix, with nothing else?
No TCP/IP, no hot-plug USB support?  No web browsing?


      

        
Oh, you wanted more than that?  Feature bloat!  Feature bloat!
Feature bloat!   Shame!  Shame!   Shame!


      

      
% ls /usr/share/man/man2|wc
    495     495    7230
% ls /bin|wc
   2809    2809   30468

How many of roughly 500 system calls (to say nothing of uncounted
ioctl's) do you think are necessary for writing those few crucial
capabilities that distinguish Linux from v7? There is
undeniably bloat, but only a sliver of it contributes to the
distinctive utility of today's systems.

Or consider this. Unix grew by about 39 system calls in its first
decade, but an average of 40
per decade ever since. Is this accelerated growth more symptomatic of
maturity or of cancer?

Doug


    

    I couldn't have said it
      better. I was looking at 'man syscalls' and shaking my head just a
      couple of days ago. I also just thought, hey, wouldn't it be nice
      to get a printed copy of the latest manpages - uh, that ain't
      gonna happen - 3000+ manpages, sheesh. Not sure I was thinking
      'man widget_toolbar' would provide me with any deep insights
      anyway, maybe that's why its in mann.

      

      Will

    
  


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