From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 4641 invoked from network); 31 Jan 2021 03:06:44 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 31 Jan 2021 03:06:44 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 104FC9C804; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 13:06:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39ECF9C653; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 13:06:21 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="tI3dAjFf"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id EECC69C653; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 13:06:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oo1-f51.google.com (mail-oo1-f51.google.com [209.85.161.51]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11A609C63D for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 13:06:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oo1-f51.google.com with SMTP id q6so3382500ooo.8 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 19:06:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=dow7KPI6oD97M2wp8tEyLnxyej9HgQI3McUITDECcC4=; b=tI3dAjFfab75VvRa9+ul0vfsFtWRMmimgQzNsKff2sDFL0ql9yapqPwILW6xx9p22y sGRrjp1KYkXpXapZw6eidVWgUQskndvLHLb5+lP3KVCHTk0vOtYOlvvT5tr5eXlpH8Ly WgrFe4q2gHN9iGFW+jr8RdwKfqOXHftL1wII3Tw5xcX6olPaWXsa2eUjz7PAtkFySWe9 nxjj2cAlELlZyySirBIOqm8QSshbtnIgGnlt9aKmh6k/1eyFeZWBaSrJ/m79NbTssfmJ kfi8hTupLAiiaD8HKxijan3VjoZfCGsgnkdPOi2Ga79/vWewz1CbjQR8lzLfkmnG82Yy 865w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=dow7KPI6oD97M2wp8tEyLnxyej9HgQI3McUITDECcC4=; b=Zl8X0nV1YeKI/nZeqnJircT3R64XbF8YAC6csdYF7xxxg2vSl+tFnS3IuRmDV4AVCS 1Hyk7P8VxM2VYNwXGTpD4t5udSl8OTDzer213QNrlcHRj/Jax6EmBeWHAXq1OZmNfJ3P rSmTPFezpkCJfwAtteKCLGIi0DWes/lb6bpfi/jHraT6llXjg+HOgHOPqosTYvZPPM5I ur1LDvKSZQv3LK8tS36Dstdl2mutXIakinbYY/rS3EJxRyiyZmB7TGYZNqVeBLyyFVQ9 AJrjAaKk2pKnx1X8HvFnqbuaBSmarJJ0XZejs2jxohaNOH5dQeFkRf56lX3T7u0jTxlX t62Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532TsUq5zREqH1aCdbSyb+IsBqJN4sdKrhIkSgNlP4lpzwBczDpH UGRCsHyygb1AJcu51bhuiyE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwd31S8RWE56TC/z7u3xuM0NACYqNuJ3PeY8ZM/govKmId0iY5RQr3EF/JUjnhStqCamiLUqA== X-Received: by 2002:a4a:bb01:: with SMTP id f1mr7979561oop.66.1612062377109; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 19:06:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.51.113.134] ([107.126.48.237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q20sm3111879otf.2.2021.01.30.19.06.16 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 30 Jan 2021 19:06:16 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Will Senn X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16H22) In-Reply-To: <20210131030019.GW4227@mcvoy.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 21:06:15 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3797E07F-7BC8-4EE5-B317-2A51D7C3E671@gmail.com> References: <202101301950.10UJoWeA456408@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20210130222854.GN4227@mcvoy.com> <20210130231119.GA33905@eureka.lemis.com> <20210131022500.GU4227@mcvoy.com> <4B3239A9-A165-4F00-8EF1-A674CBCFC7FF@gmail.com> <20210131030019.GW4227@mcvoy.com> To: Larry McVoy Subject: Re: [TUHS] FreeBSD behind the times? (was: Favorite unix design principles?) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" No worries. Maybe it=E2=80=99s time for a vi emacs discussion... totally kid= ding :) Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 30, 2021, at 9:00 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: >=20 > I think this has gone on along enough. Don't want it to be personal, not > my intent. >=20 > Like I said it seems like a Linux vs FreeBSD thing. Don't want that. > You can search the archives about Ted talking about how ext was not > all that (I'm a fan). >=20 >> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 08:52:09PM -0600, Will Senn wrote: >> Ha. Zfs may not be the be all and end all, but like I said, it???s never f= ailed me. Whereas extX and btrfs, and, and, and have many times. Please don?= ??t denigrate my knowledge, as so far as I know, we???ve never met, and noth= ing I said warrants such. The installer reminds me of Redhat???s old anacond= a installer, I???ll grant you it???s dated. However, I typically install a n= ew linux distro every week and there are many, many installers that are far m= ore confusing - Open Suse and Fedora are two that come to mind, Debian as we= ll. I would hazard to guess your favorite Linux is based on a distro that la= cks a decent installer (Ubuntu and Mint are Debian based).=20 >>=20 >> Will >>=20 >> Sent from my iPhone >>=20 >>> On Jan 30, 2021, at 8:25 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: >>>=20 >>> If you like ZFS you don't understand operating systems design. I do. >>> Jeff Bonwick was a stats student at Stanford when he took my OS class, >>> I convinced him to come to Sun. Bill Moore worked for me. That's the t= wo >>> main ZFS guys and I thought I had taught them well but they let me down.= >>>=20 >>> ZFS doesn't use the page cache, they said it was too hard because ZFS >>> is compressed. A typical file system just has block numbers, a compress= ed >>> one needs another int per block, it's the int that says these many bytes= >>> are a block uncompressed. It's not that hard, it is 2 ints instead of 1= . >>>=20 >>> In case I'm not being clear, the page cache is what everyone else uses >>> but ZFS has its own cache. So if you want to mmap() a ZFS file, ZFS >>> has to bcopy() the data into the page cache and then spend a shit ton >>> of code to make sure that the page cache data is in sync with the ZFS >>> cache data. >>>=20 >>> SunOS came from BSD but SunOS added mmap. Which had the same problem, >>> the BSD buffer cache was exactly the same as the ZFS cache, Sun spent=20= >>> years of effort to get rid of the buffer cache, everything is in the=20 >>> page cache. So ZFS was a HUGE step backwards in systems design. Might >>> be the best file system ever (it is not) but it was not a good player >>> in the OS world. >>>=20 >>> Those guys said that it was too hard to make a compressed file fit in >>> the page cache. BitKeeper has that code and proves that it can be done.= >>> Be happy to walk anyone who cares through that code, I didn't write that= , >>> Wayne Scott did, but it's some of the best written code I've ever seen. >>> Up there with Mojo's work on the SunOS VM system. (I'll bet that noone >>> takes me up on this offer, people love to argue but most don't want to >>> learn. Prove me wrong, please). >>>=20 >>> So good on you that you like ZFS and FreeBSD. I don't and I don't for >>> really good reasons. >>>=20 >>> Let's try it this way. Get back to me when you can show me 40 people=20= >>> who have installed FreeBSD on their own, with no help. In the same=20 >>> time, I can show you 40,000 people who have installed Linux on their >>> own, with no help. Probably 400,000. >>>=20 >>> Technology is great, ease of use is what gets you users. ZFS is >>> great but doesn't play nice with the OS. >>>=20 >>> That's my oh brother. >>>=20 >>>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 07:47:41PM -0600, Will Senn wrote: >>>> Oh brother. I use FreeBSD all the time. I prefer it for its stability a= nd ZFS which has NEVER let me down and I???ve done my share of stupid user e= rror. Now that Linux has ZFS, it doesn???t seem as stuck in the dark ages, b= ut uptime on my fbsd instance is 10x any of my Linux instances. We are soooo= off topic, I think :). But, I???m always up for talking up FBSD. I use it i= n my classes, too and the system is much more coherent for my systems progra= mming classes than linux. >>>>=20 >>>> Will >>>>=20 >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Jan 30, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wr= ote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Saturday, 30 January 2021 at 14:28:54 -0800, Larry McVoy wrote: >>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 04:28:26PM -0500, Clem Cole wrote: >>>>>>> If I could get the day-2-day >>>>>>> applications that I need to work on FreeBSD, I suspect I would be th= ere in >>>>>>> a heartbeat. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I dunno about that. I tried out FreeBSD a couple of years ago when >>>>>> Netflix was flirting with me. The installer hasn't seen any loving i= n >>>>>> 30 years it would seem. The disk setup tool sucks just as bad as it >>>>>> did back in 1988. >>>>>=20 >>>>> You could be right there, for some value of 1988 (FreeBSD came into >>>>> being in 1992). The tools work without being good. But how often do >>>>> you use them? I've been using FreeBSD since the beginning, and I >>>>> can't recall when I last used the disk partitioning tool, though I'm >>>>> sure that when I did I overrode a lot of (all?) the suggestions. >>>>>=20 >>>>>> I remember when Linux was this bad in the .90ish releases. A long >>>>>> time ago. Now their install is painless, it's every bit as good as >>>>>> Windows and maybe better. >>>>>=20 >>>>> FWIW, I find Microsoft "Windows" installation terminally confusing >>>>> (that's what you were talking about, right?). And I've run into >>>>> serious problems with various Linux installations too. That doesn't >>>>> make the FreeBSD tools better, but maybe it relativizes it. >>>>>=20 >>>>>> And it got that way fast, I remember doing an install on some >>>>>> machine around 1998 or 1999, I didn't have a mouse plugged in, no >>>>>> worries, you could just move around with the keyboard. X11 came up >>>>>> as part of the install, the entire install was graphical and >>>>>> seamless. >>>>>=20 >>>>> The FreeBSD installer *does* install X if you select it. >>>>>=20 >>>>>> FreeBSD is stuck in the 1990's in terms of user interface. >>>>>=20 >>>>> You're still talking about the installer, aren't you? The normal user= >>>>> interface is via the shell, which hasn't changed, and for a good >>>>> reason. >>>>>=20 >>>>>> They've done some good stuff in the kernel but it's not an end user >>>>>> system, >>>>>=20 >>>>> There I have to agree with you. A little TLC would go a long way. >>>>> But I hope that you're not advocating the "change your GUI with your >>>>> underwear" attitude that Microsoft, Apple and many Linux distros >>>>> have. One of the reasons I don't use Linux is because every time I >>>>> try, the interface has changed. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Greg >>>>> -- >>>>> Sent from my desktop computer. >>>>> Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. >>>>> See complete headers for address and phone numbers. >>>>> This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program >>>>> reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> --- >>> Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.m= cvoy.com/lm=20 >=20 > --=20 > --- > Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcv= oy.com/lm=20