From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 15115 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2022 23:57:19 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Jun 2022 23:57:19 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10E45421F8; Sat, 4 Jun 2022 09:57:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: from sasl.smtp.pobox.com (pb-sasl20.pobox.com [173.228.157.48]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAE6140CD1 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2022 09:57:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: from sasl.smtp.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-sasl20.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1A68CCFCD for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2022 19:57:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=pobox.com; h=from :content-type:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; s=sasl; bh=g1ZZ2r8fUx2vPY4Pc/p3UVtsy4Ok CCFZ90BU6S/vq+w=; b=TQ6QQjCDdtAXGLGZwvOZl5dHo2hd/3hzCRQikBzZeo0K E80I+Y0AxIlr+KOsxWdX2RAGn2OV2LYCJojE27pQ7dEv4YK3SmVPAIDAyitBDzZL APVHlnkOnPvn7kDIkmn5mKEoK1qh0+0yVEdP0sr52c99Uex+BVQwbxAM8ftY/Wg= Received: from pb-sasl20.sea.icgroup.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-sasl20.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB56FCCFCC for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2022 19:57:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) Received: from [192.168.86.129] (unknown [203.132.93.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pb-sasl20.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 550F3CCFCB for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2022 19:57:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) From: David Arnold Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_88D8F474-D7ED-41BF-9C24-034D4FCD0F67" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2022 09:56:59 +1000 References: <20220603202330.f4spdxyn34uiyy5v@illithid> <20220603213215.GO10240@mcvoy.com> <20220603214032.GQ10240@mcvoy.com> <20220603223014.GS10240@mcvoy.com> To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <406144DC-1B0F-4C4A-AE3E-B7765F3B352A@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-Pobox-Relay-ID: DE4A68EA-E398-11EC-A44A-89EEA057DFA7-29049682!pb-sasl20.pobox.com Message-ID-Hash: XPLOFGPSSN7QRSUPS3S6V5DH2MBFHXW3 X-Message-ID-Hash: XPLOFGPSSN7QRSUPS3S6V5DH2MBFHXW3 X-MailFrom: davida@pobox.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Fwd: [simh] Announcing the Open SIMH project List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --Apple-Mail=_88D8F474-D7ED-41BF-9C24-034D4FCD0F67 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 4 Jun 2022, at 08:52, Warner Losh wrote: < =E2=80=A6 > > But honestly, the litigation was a deal killer for many BSD users in = the early days, > and that gave Linux room to grow. Had the BSDs not faced the = competition from Linux > and had similar resources poured into them, the NetBSD/FreeBSD split = would have > been good competition, much as there's good competition between = Debian, Redhat, Suse, > Canonical, etc today in the Linux space which helps to drive = innovation. >=20 > Even today, with the benefit of hindsight, it's hard to pin which of = these facts on > the ground was the biggest driver for most people=E2=80=A6 Anecdata: I=E2=80=99d had exposure to HP/UX and SunOS at university, and I used = Minix (installed from a stack of floppies) on my 80286 PC at home. At = some point I accidentally dd=E2=80=99d over the DOS partition, and Minix = became my primary OS for a year or so. I was an avid DDJ reader (RIP) and so I=E2=80=99d seen the 386BSD = series, but I couldn=E2=80=99t get a hold of the code for some time. = IIRC, my usual method was to FTP each floppy image to my university = account (with brutal storage quotas), and then pull it down to my PC to = write out locally. I had an early copy of either FreeBSD or NetBSD = (can=E2=80=99t recall which), but I think at that stage it demanded = complete ownership of the hard disk (and didn=E2=80=99t cope with = PC-style MBR partition tables) and I didn=E2=80=99t have a spare HDD to = put it on. I also seem to recall some driver issue: I didn=E2=80=99t = have a SCSI controller, and I think I recall a problem with my MFM (or = was it early IDE) controller? Linux floppies (MCC? HJ Lu?) were much easier to come by: I borrowed a = set from someone, and re-downloaded the corrupt ones, and was able to = install Linux beside my existing Minix installation easily. It was very = flakey to start with, but in a relatively short time I had X running, = and that was the end of Minix for me. After university, I had jobs and money, and had various Free/Net/OpenBSD = machines, but they typically lacked support for some iffy hardware I was = using, and fairly quickly *BSD became a second-class platform for stuff = like Netscape, and GPU drivers, and so on. I think a similar pattern was true for many of my era (late 80=E2=80=99s/e= arly 90=E2=80=99s). It was quite a bit easier to get a Linux system = running while retaining a DOS, Windows or Minix system as a backup, and = so that was how it evolved. It had nothing (directly) to do with the legal issues. d --Apple-Mail=_88D8F474-D7ED-41BF-9C24-034D4FCD0F67 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On = 4 Jun 2022, at 08:52, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

< =E2=80=A6 >

But honestly, the litigation was a deal killer = for many BSD users in the early days,
and that gave Linux room to grow. Had the BSDs = not faced the competition from Linux
and had = similar resources poured into them, the NetBSD/FreeBSD split would = have
been good competition, much as there's good = competition between Debian, Redhat, Suse,
Canonical, = etc today in the Linux space which helps to drive innovation.

Even today, with the = benefit of hindsight, it's hard to pin which of these facts on
the ground was the biggest driver for most = people=E2=80=A6

Anecdata:

I=E2=80=99d had exposure to HP/UX and SunOS at university, = and I used Minix (installed from a stack of floppies) on my 80286 PC at = home.  At some point I accidentally dd=E2=80=99d over the DOS = partition, and Minix became my primary OS for a year or so.

I was an avid DDJ reader = (RIP) and so I=E2=80=99d seen the 386BSD series, but I couldn=E2=80=99t = get a hold of the code for some time.  IIRC, my usual method was to = FTP each floppy image to my university account (with brutal storage = quotas), and then pull it down to my PC to write out locally.  I = had an early copy of either FreeBSD or NetBSD (can=E2=80=99t recall = which), but I think at that stage it demanded complete ownership of the = hard disk (and didn=E2=80=99t cope with PC-style MBR partition tables) = and I didn=E2=80=99t have a spare HDD to put it on.  I also seem to = recall some driver issue: I didn=E2=80=99t have a SCSI controller, and I = think I recall a problem with my MFM (or was it early IDE) = controller?

Linux floppies (MCC?  HJ Lu?) were much easier to come = by: I borrowed a set from someone, and re-downloaded the corrupt ones, = and was able to install Linux beside my existing Minix installation = easily.  It was very flakey to start with, but in a relatively = short time I had X running, and that was the end of Minix for = me.

After = university, I had jobs and money, and had various Free/Net/OpenBSD = machines, but they typically lacked support for some iffy hardware I was = using, and fairly quickly *BSD became a second-class platform for stuff = like Netscape, and GPU drivers, and so on.

I think a similar pattern was true for = many of my era (late 80=E2=80=99s/early 90=E2=80=99s).  It was = quite a bit easier to get a Linux system running while retaining a DOS, = Windows or Minix system as a backup, and so that was how it = evolved.

It = had nothing (directly) to do with the legal issues.





d
= --Apple-Mail=_88D8F474-D7ED-41BF-9C24-034D4FCD0F67--