From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id d25201c8 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 22:04:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 65E949D73C; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 08:04:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2437E9D721; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 08:03:45 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=fastmail.com header.i=@fastmail.com header.b="E5romZsa"; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.b="Kt+AGvUs"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id E2A379D71D; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 08:03:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 775C59D71B for ; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 08:03:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E68621B8C for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:03:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap35 ([10.202.2.85]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 04 Mar 2020 17:03:41 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.com; h= mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=XcUN4mpI+lNv80kT/WshkVNcpkF17ZZ QnNB26KmFRFg=; b=E5romZsa1XtkH07j+U0ba1Us8R0mH9rR2hHqlTYZJDJuhnU ZzGF6Tfht371qHxzpBc/xRghlybTo6/2AG7GqguD3iGQzOJ6P5u8U/14/fHM0khf YHk6ROu/SaHpfF3uoz9uR1FQoGVEFJFQTtqzMnYNzo33Iv0sy61K6bnI+pFwdb/I 2AO6i6gyOpuC3YpepbtLmB31cqeC+CexkT57e766H3WMCqRQhqnabZ5978xQybd5 B/6Sy+PxkyAGn17RrPsnAeB2D+oPn4lPq/iUgZkcMMhQdj81aZL7GA9DIkYrZnLc sIDfq99xphGJWxlk3DxQwbX4hE+IStAUx+EGwNg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=XcUN4m pI+lNv80kT/WshkVNcpkF17ZZQnNB26KmFRFg=; b=Kt+AGvUs/qSDbIkvgbUSzy /9eiSTdQDtgLoyB21fNhZQb1cXUBp5U7nBQTiZJM5kBvYpWz9GE15lvAav39oZbD i/dygMHyOht9bXzRrxHRofsr/UglMkDErMdao145bAoLATtVUxzID+qIvkQ2AvKb PsGAGBNbl/scZqZV+iUb+7Vw/Qhz86JLzzy0Bsc1XpuO228xDfc86wALXRqnD2go i1Zi25aTJf2t5ejUcVgPQOuySXpXxCZbgg3ZV3y9ECQKzHtPSVD0plqWzImA0f3z EHzg57i4+6mrJY1xQWrs1QPviGEX64T47ZwIr3dXxjOp2WLAoe8HeXI8e4L4w9Pg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedruddtkedgudehiecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttdertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpeftrghn ughomhekfedvuceorhgrnhguohhmkeefvdesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlrdgtohhmqeenucevlh hushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehrrghnughomhek fedvsehfrghsthhmrghilhdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 3EF7C14C010C; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:03:41 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-986-gfc2d493-fmstable-20200304v3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <43d31402-fd1a-4324-a8fb-ef72406d41f3@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <202003031815.023IFSlD493028@darkstar.fourwinds.com> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 17:03:20 -0500 From: Random832 To: "Grant Taylor via TUHS" Content-Type: text/plain Subject: Re: [TUHS] Command line options and complexity X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" I put a lot of thoughts in my previous message, but hit send before thinking of a good way to summarize my main point... On Tue, Mar 3, 2020, at 13:44, Adam Thornton wrote: > Somewhat disingenuous. I mean, yes, that's true, but on the other hand > it means that you have to keep the "what Powershell commands operate on > what structure" in your head instead, since you can no longer assume > the pipelines to be a universal interface. The thing is, each Unix command imposes an implied structure on its input, so it's not *really* a universal interface. Some operate on lines as free text, some operate on space-delimited fields [with no good way to escape them, though some do support an IFS environment variable to at least change the delimiter], some work best with fixed-width fields. Few provide a way to embed delimiters [be they newline/null for record separator, tab/comma/space field separators, or a user-defined separator for commands that support that] within a value. Sort requires all values to be comparable as either strings or numbers. Most commands you might want to use as a source in a pipeline also expect to be used directly for human-readable output, so they produce output that can be difficult to use for further processing (e.g. dates in ls, which not only can't be sorted directly, but also are limited to minutes for dates in the past year, and days for dates before that, and are in the local time zone) Hardly *any* commands you'd use in a pipeline really operate on unstructured bytes. Compression, I suppose. But other than that, you have just as much need to know what commands operate on what structure in Unix as in Powershell - the only difference is that the serialization is explicitly part of the interface... and due to the typical inability to escape delimiters, leaky.