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* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
@ 2020-07-17 18:08 Norman Wilson
  2020-07-17 18:14 ` John Cowan
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Norman Wilson @ 2020-07-17 18:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history
just as well as those of Research UNIX or BSD or
SVr4.2.2.2.2.2.2.2 or SunOS or IRIX or Ultrix or
Tru64-compaqted-HPSauce or whatever.  It all stems
from the same roots, despite the protestations of
purists from all sides.

Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
him I will say: Ploooogie!

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

* One of Peter Weinberger's sayings that I still
enjoy overusing.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 18:08 [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Norman Wilson
@ 2020-07-17 18:14 ` John Cowan
  2020-07-17 18:19 ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 19:53 ` [TUHS] Linux is on-topic Warren Toomey
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: John Cowan @ 2020-07-17 18:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Norman Wilson; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 2:10 PM Norman Wilson <norman@oclsc.org> wrote:


> Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> him I will say: Ploooogie!
>

Is that the plural of Plugh?


John Cowan          http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan        cowan@ccil.org
One time I called in to the central system and started working on a big
thick 'sed' and 'awk' heavy duty data bashing script.  One of the geologists
came by, looked over my shoulder and said 'Oh, that happens to me too.
Try hanging up and phoning in again.'  --Beverly Erlebacher

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* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 18:08 [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Norman Wilson
  2020-07-17 18:14 ` John Cowan
@ 2020-07-17 18:19 ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 19:53 ` [TUHS] Linux is on-topic Warren Toomey
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-17 18:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Norman Wilson; +Cc: tuhs

I agree but the purists will say linux is more like minux or other
rewrites from scratch.  All the other stuff listed below that isn't
Linux, all traces back to v7, v6, etc.

Given that Linux is so wide spread, yeah, it would be nice to have a
place for old fuddy duddies like me to smack our gums and say "sonny
boy, you and your fancy TCP/IP, a modem was good enough for me and it
was uphill in both directions" :-)

Actually, TCP/IP was awesome when we got it.  Modems were better than
nothing but they sucked until they were fast enough for SLIP.

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history
> just as well as those of Research UNIX or BSD or
> SVr4.2.2.2.2.2.2.2 or SunOS or IRIX or Ultrix or
> Tru64-compaqted-HPSauce or whatever.  It all stems
> from the same roots, despite the protestations of
> purists from all sides.
> 
> Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> him I will say: Ploooogie!
> 
> Norman Wilson
> Toronto ON
> 
> * One of Peter Weinberger's sayings that I still
> enjoy overusing.

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 18:08 [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Norman Wilson
  2020-07-17 18:14 ` John Cowan
  2020-07-17 18:19 ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-07-17 19:53 ` Warren Toomey
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Warren Toomey @ 2020-07-17 19:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Norman Wilson; +Cc: tuhs

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history..
> Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> him I will say: Ploooogie!

I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.

Cheers, Warren

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:53 ` [TUHS] Linux is on-topic Warren Toomey
@ 2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 20:00     ` Adam Thornton
                       ` (5 more replies)
  0 siblings, 6 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-17 19:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Toomey; +Cc: tuhs

On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 05:53:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> > In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> > origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history..
> > Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> > him I will say: Ploooogie!
> 
> I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.

But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
So no need for that here.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-07-17 20:00     ` Adam Thornton
  2020-07-17 20:04       ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 20:03     ` Dan Cross
                       ` (4 subsequent siblings)
  5 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Adam Thornton @ 2020-07-17 20:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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I think that "Where can I find a clean copy of an HJ Lu boot/root set?" is
an acceptable-for-here Linux tech support question, to be honest.

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:58 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 05:53:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> > > In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> > > origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history..
> > > Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> > > him I will say: Ploooogie!
> >
> > I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.
>
> But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
> Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
> and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
> So no need for that here.
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 20:00     ` Adam Thornton
@ 2020-07-17 20:03     ` Dan Cross
  2020-07-17 23:31       ` A. P. Garcia
  2020-07-19 10:26       ` emanuel stiebler
  2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
                       ` (3 subsequent siblings)
  5 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2020-07-17 20:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 3:58 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
> and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
> So no need for that here.
>

"Back in my day, we had VAXen! And you couldn't carry them anywhere! And
the disc drives weighed a hundred pounds! AND WE LIKED IT THAT WAY!"

:-D

        - Dan C.

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* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:00     ` Adam Thornton
@ 2020-07-17 20:04       ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-17 20:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Adam Thornton; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Oh yeah, I wasn't talking about your post, your post was fine.  I was
thinking more like "Does anyone know how to get $DEVICE to work in
ubuntu 5.13?".  I think that is what Grant meant as well.

Historical is great.

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 01:00:27PM -0700, Adam Thornton wrote:
> I think that "Where can I find a clean copy of an HJ Lu boot/root set?" is
> an acceptable-for-here Linux tech support question, to be honest.
> 
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:58 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 05:53:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> > > > In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> > > > origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history..
> > > > Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> > > > him I will say: Ploooogie!
> > >
> > > I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.
> >
> > But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
> > Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
> > and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
> > So no need for that here.
> >

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 20:00     ` Adam Thornton
  2020-07-17 20:03     ` Dan Cross
@ 2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
  2020-07-17 20:12       ` Warner Losh
                         ` (2 more replies)
  2020-07-17 20:08     ` Michael Kjörling
                       ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  5 siblings, 3 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Warren Toomey @ 2020-07-17 20:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:57:18PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.

Correct. It's all about Heritage on The Unix Heritage Society mailing list.
Chat about the early days of Linux is fine; helping to get Wayland to work
isn't (at least, not for another 20 years or so).

Cheers, Warren

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
                       ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
@ 2020-07-17 20:08     ` Michael Kjörling
  2020-07-17 20:55       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-18  3:34     ` Tomasz Rola
  2020-07-18 16:45     ` Christopher Browne
  5 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Michael Kjörling @ 2020-07-17 20:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 17 Jul 2020 12:57 -0700, from lm@mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy):
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 05:53:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
>> I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.
> 
> But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
> Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
> and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
> So no need for that here.

I agree. For topicality, I think it's reasonable to draw the line
somewhere similar to what's already the case with the "true" unixes,
if I'm allowed to use such a designation. As a rule of thumb,
something along the lines of: if it's got a historical application
(say, "how do I get UUCP running on this Linux installation designed
to replicate a 1992 system?") then it's on topic; if it's solely about
modern systems ("how do I get Wayland running with my Nvidia GeForce
RTX 2060 Super?") then it's off topic.

So, really, no significant change there.

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael@kjorling.se
 “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
@ 2020-07-17 20:12       ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-17 20:19       ` Clem Cole
  2020-07-19  9:54       ` Sergio Pedraja
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2020-07-17 20:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Toomey; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 2:08 PM Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:57:18PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
>
> Correct. It's all about Heritage on The Unix Heritage Society mailing list.
> Chat about the early days of Linux is fine; helping to get Wayland to work
> isn't (at least, not for another 20 years or so).
>

That's in line with the rest: I can't come here for FreeBSD or Illumos
support either. But talking about how they forked, etc is fine.

Warner

>

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* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
  2020-07-17 20:12       ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-07-17 20:19       ` Clem Cole
  2020-07-19  9:54       ` Sergio Pedraja
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2020-07-17 20:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Toomey; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 4:08 PM Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:57:18PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
>
> Correct. It's all about Heritage on The Unix Heritage Society mailing list.
> Chat about the early days of Linux is fine; helping to get Wayland to work
> isn't (at least, not for another 20 years or so).
>
> Cheers, Warren
>

+1 works for me.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:08     ` Michael Kjörling
@ 2020-07-17 20:55       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17 21:28         ` Michael Kjörling
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-17 20:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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On 7/17/20 2:08 PM, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> I agree. For topicality, I think it's reasonable to draw the line 
> somewhere

Agree.

I use the following questions as a litmus test, requiring both to be true.

1)  Does it fall into the broad category of Unix or Unix like operating 
systems?

2)  Is it old ~> historic?

I use the "historic car" definition as a guideline for how old "old" is. 
  Specifically 25 years old, or older.

If both of those answers are "yes", then I figure that at worst, someone 
might ask "please take this topic to COFF or elsewhere.

I figure that there's a little bit of wiggle room for other topics, but 
would not be surprised if I needed to justify why it belongs on TUHS vs 
COFF.  E.g. trying to resurrect an ancient protocol used by <bla>.

> similar to what's already the case with the "true" unixes, if I'm 
> allowed to use such a designation.

Eh ... can I get something to wash that down?

I'm "okay" with such designations if you will back them up with a hard 
definition of what qualifies or not.

> As a rule of thumb, something along the lines of: if it's got a 
> historical application (say, "how do I get UUCP running on this 
> Linux installation designed to replicate a 1992 system?") then it's 
> on topic; if it's solely about modern systems ("how do I get Wayland 
> running with my Nvidia GeForce RTX 2060 Super?") then it's off topic.

ACK



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:55       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-07-17 21:28         ` Michael Kjörling
  2020-07-18 20:22           ` Ed Carp
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Michael Kjörling @ 2020-07-17 21:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 17 Jul 2020 14:55 -0600, from tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org (Grant Taylor via TUHS):
>> similar to what's already the case with the "true" unixes, if I'm
>> allowed to use such a designation.
> 
> Eh ... can I get something to wash that down?
> 
> I'm "okay" with such designations if you will back them up with a hard
> definition of what qualifies or not.

Well, that was sort of the point I tried to imply by my "if I'm
allowed to use such a designation". It's hard to define precisely.

For the moment, I think I'll go with "an operating system and
associated userspace toolset that traces an unbroken source code
lineage back to the original UNIX system". With the specific caveat
that my intent was to go _beyond_ that, by including Unix derivatives
such as Linux.

Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
A/UX.

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael@kjorling.se
 “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:03     ` Dan Cross
@ 2020-07-17 23:31       ` A. P. Garcia
  2020-07-19 10:26       ` emanuel stiebler
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: A. P. Garcia @ 2020-07-17 23:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dan Cross; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 6:43 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 3:58 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
>> Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
>> and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
>> So no need for that here.
>>
>
> "Back in my day, we had VAXen! And you couldn't carry them anywhere! And
> the disc drives weighed a hundred pounds! AND WE LIKED IT THAT WAY!"
>
> :-D
>
>         - Dan C.
>
>

Those VAXen weren't just colossal physically. What, with that huge address
space, all the meticulous care that was put into making Unix small and
beautiful went right out the window. Truly, it was the beginning of the
end. ;-)

>

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* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
                       ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
  2020-07-17 20:08     ` Michael Kjörling
@ 2020-07-18  3:34     ` Tomasz Rola
  2020-07-18 16:45     ` Christopher Browne
  5 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Tomasz Rola @ 2020-07-18  3:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:57:18PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 05:53:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> > > In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> > > origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history..
> > > Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> > > him I will say: Ploooogie!
> > 
> > I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.
> 
> But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
> Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
> and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
> So no need for that here.

I think that perhaps some codewords should be adopted for various *nix
flavours/implementations/reimplementations. For example: linux =
frogboat. Nobody will ever come here to ask about fixing problem with
this.

And besides, I would really not mind if there was a single place where
I could read something about frogboat and other dolls. Reusing this
list for such purpose is ok for me, since I am already subscribed.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com             **

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
                       ` (4 preceding siblings ...)
  2020-07-18  3:34     ` Tomasz Rola
@ 2020-07-18 16:45     ` Christopher Browne
  2020-07-19  7:32       ` Lars Brinkhoff
  5 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Browne @ 2020-07-18 16:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Fri, 17 Jul 2020 at 15:58, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 05:53:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> > > In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> > > origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history..
> > > Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> > > him I will say: Ploooogie!
> >
> > I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.
>
> But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
> Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
> and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
> So no need for that here.
>

I think back to those mouldy oldie days, and my set of early things were...
- First got exposed to BSD 4.1 with MFCF extensions ('86)
- Couldn't afford *real* hardware, so I tracked whatever could run on
   Atari ST, and the biggest improvement I was able to get there was
   to be able to run Bash, early GCC, and sundry GNU tools, where
   I couldn't spawn multiple processes, but there was still plenty of useful
- Then followed the MiNT period (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiNT)
   where we accepted that MiNT is NOT TOS, but still lended a POSIX
   interface, only to be briefly overjoyed at the rename to "MiNT is
   NOW TOS"
- First paid work on Unix ('93) involved SCO (where that was the
  debugging platform for some C code targeting VMS!); that was a
  platform where I was pretty overjoyed to discover I could run multiple
  terms on a single console.  And found it odd when people thought this
  was a huge innovation of Linux...

I'm not sure I have much that's extraordinarily interesting to say about
MiNT, but I'd think that to be pretty on-topic for TUHS :-).
-- 
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"

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* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 21:28         ` Michael Kjörling
@ 2020-07-18 20:22           ` Ed Carp
  2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-22  3:41             ` Jason
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Ed Carp @ 2020-07-18 20:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Michael Kjörling; +Cc: tuhs

Oh, boy, now you've got me started. I worked on A/UX at Apple back
around 1992. I'd love to find a copy of that!

On 7/17/20, Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se> wrote:

> Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
> criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
> possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
> A/UX.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-18 20:22           ` Ed Carp
@ 2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-19  2:31               ` Gregg Levine
                                 ` (2 more replies)
  2020-07-22  3:41             ` Jason
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2020-07-18 20:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ed Carp; +Cc: TUHS main list

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On Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 2:23 PM Ed Carp <erc@pobox.com> wrote:

> Oh, boy, now you've got me started. I worked on A/UX at Apple back
> around 1992. I'd love to find a copy of that!
>

Google can find it, if you really need it.

Warner

On 7/17/20, Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se> wrote:
>
> > Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
> > criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
> > possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
> > A/UX.
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-07-19  2:31               ` Gregg Levine
  2020-07-19  3:46               ` Wesley Parish
  2020-07-20  0:24               ` [TUHS] Linux is on-topic Ed Carp
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Gregg Levine @ 2020-07-19  2:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list

Hello!
Wow. I actually met with the folks at Apple, here in NYC regarding that OS.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 4:31 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 2:23 PM Ed Carp <erc@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>> Oh, boy, now you've got me started. I worked on A/UX at Apple back
>> around 1992. I'd love to find a copy of that!
>
>
> Google can find it, if you really need it.
>
> Warner
>
>> On 7/17/20, Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se> wrote:
>>
>> > Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
>> > criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
>> > possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
>> > A/UX.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-19  2:31               ` Gregg Levine
@ 2020-07-19  3:46               ` Wesley Parish
  2020-07-19  4:42                 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-20  0:24               ` [TUHS] Linux is on-topic Ed Carp
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Wesley Parish @ 2020-07-19  3:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warner Losh; +Cc: TUHS main list

I remember in the early 90s, just when I was needing to use computers,
thus getting actively interested in them, reading an article in one of
the Mac mags on A/UX and thinking, that and a top performing
Macintosh! life couldn't get any sweeter!

Almost thirty years later, worked my way through Mac, MS/PC DOS plus
Windows, OS/2, Windows NT/2K,XP/7/8.1/10, Linux and running a few OSes
now on virtual machines, and I'd still love to have that running.

Though I suspect it'd be more in the background ...

Wesley Parish

On 7/19/20, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 2:23 PM Ed Carp <erc@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> Oh, boy, now you've got me started. I worked on A/UX at Apple back
>> around 1992. I'd love to find a copy of that!
>>
>
> Google can find it, if you really need it.
>
> Warner
>
> On 7/17/20, Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se> wrote:
>>
>> > Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
>> > criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
>> > possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
>> > A/UX.
>>
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-19  3:46               ` Wesley Parish
@ 2020-07-19  4:42                 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-19 18:01                   ` Michael Parson
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-19  4:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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On 7/18/20 9:46 PM, Wesley Parish wrote:
> I'd still love to have that running.

I think I've seen articles about people running it running 
virtualization / emulation.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-18 16:45     ` Christopher Browne
@ 2020-07-19  7:32       ` Lars Brinkhoff
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Lars Brinkhoff @ 2020-07-19  7:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Christopher Browne; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Christopher Browne wrote:
> - Then followed the MiNT period (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiNT)
> where we accepted that MiNT is NOT TOS, but still lended a POSIX
> interface

Another MiNT user here.  After that, I tried both NetBSD and Linux on a
Falcon030.  NetBSD wouldn't work, which may be why I keep to Linux now.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
  2020-07-17 20:12       ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-17 20:19       ` Clem Cole
@ 2020-07-19  9:54       ` Sergio Pedraja
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Sergio Pedraja @ 2020-07-19  9:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Toomey; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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El vie., 17 jul. 2020 22:08, Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> escribió:

> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:57:18PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
>
> Correct. It's all about Heritage on The Unix Heritage Society mailing list.
> Chat about the early days of Linux is fine; helping to get Wayland to work
> isn't (at least, not for another 20 years or so).
>

Absolutely right :-)

Sergio

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:03     ` Dan Cross
  2020-07-17 23:31       ` A. P. Garcia
@ 2020-07-19 10:26       ` emanuel stiebler
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: emanuel stiebler @ 2020-07-19 10:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dan Cross, Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On 2020-07-17 16:03, Dan Cross wrote:

> "Back in my day, we had VAXen! And you couldn't carry them anywhere! And
> the disc drives weighed a hundred pounds! AND WE LIKED IT THAT WAY!"
> 
> :-D

That's why DEC made also the MicroVAX. I had once a MVII/BA23 in my
samsonite. Weird look at customs, but worked ;-)

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-19  4:42                 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-07-19 18:01                   ` Michael Parson
  2020-07-20  8:47                     ` [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic] arnold
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Michael Parson @ 2020-07-19 18:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 2020-07-18 23:42, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 7/18/20 9:46 PM, Wesley Parish wrote:
>> I'd still love to have that running.
> 
> I think I've seen articles about people running it running
> virtualization / emulation.

As far as I've been able to find, there is only one emulator that can 
run A/UX, shoebill[0].

I've got a Mac Quadra 950 with a Workgroup Server 95 card in it in the 
garage that I've been planning on someday trying to get A/UX running on, 
but haven't found enough round tuits.

Maybe if someone could rip the 680[34]0+MMU bits out of Win/FS-UAE 
(Amiga emulator) and patch them into Basilisk II (Mac 68K emulator), 
A/UX might work there.

-- 
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
KF5LGQ

[0] https://github.com/emaculation/shoebill


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-19  2:31               ` Gregg Levine
  2020-07-19  3:46               ` Wesley Parish
@ 2020-07-20  0:24               ` Ed Carp
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Ed Carp @ 2020-07-20  0:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warner Losh; +Cc: TUHS main list

I look about once a year. Haven't found it yet. :(<div
id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
<table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
	<tr>
        <td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon"
target="_blank"><img
src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif"
alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"
/></a></td>
		<td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: #41424e;
font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
line-height: 18px;">Virus-free. <a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link"
target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avast.com</a>
		</td>
	</tr>
</table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1"
height="1"></a></div>

On 7/18/20, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 2:23 PM Ed Carp <erc@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> Oh, boy, now you've got me started. I worked on A/UX at Apple back
>> around 1992. I'd love to find a copy of that!
>>
>
> Google can find it, if you really need it.
>
> Warner
>
> On 7/17/20, Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se> wrote:
>>
>> > Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
>> > criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
>> > possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
>> > A/UX.
>>
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] A/UX [was  Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-19 18:01                   ` Michael Parson
@ 2020-07-20  8:47                     ` arnold
  2020-07-20  9:46                       ` Arno Griffioen
                                         ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2020-07-20  8:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: mparson; +Cc: tuhs

ISTR that A/UX was nothing special as a Unix.  Am I failing to remember?

I had had a DMD 5620 at my job, and after I moved to a different place
and requested one, they graced me with a Macintosh.  It could sort of
do multiple windows, but it was like having a piper cub after being
used to a 747.

Other interesting bits for the Mac to maybe recover would be Mach Ten,
which ran Mach on top of regular MacOS. (Talk about inverted pyramids...)
There was also a Mach/Linux that I think ran on the Mac at some point.

Arnold

Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote:

> On 2020-07-18 23:42, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> > On 7/18/20 9:46 PM, Wesley Parish wrote:
> >> I'd still love to have that running.
> > 
> > I think I've seen articles about people running it running
> > virtualization / emulation.
>
> As far as I've been able to find, there is only one emulator that can 
> run A/UX, shoebill[0].
>
> I've got a Mac Quadra 950 with a Workgroup Server 95 card in it in the 
> garage that I've been planning on someday trying to get A/UX running on, 
> but haven't found enough round tuits.
>
> Maybe if someone could rip the 680[34]0+MMU bits out of Win/FS-UAE 
> (Amiga emulator) and patch them into Basilisk II (Mac 68K emulator), 
> A/UX might work there.
>
> -- 
> Michael Parson
> Pflugerville, TX
> KF5LGQ
>
> [0] https://github.com/emaculation/shoebill


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was  Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20  8:47                     ` [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic] arnold
@ 2020-07-20  9:46                       ` Arno Griffioen
  2020-07-20 16:35                         ` Arthur Krewat
                                           ` (2 more replies)
  2020-07-20  9:48                       ` Andrew Warkentin
                                         ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  3 siblings, 3 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Arno Griffioen @ 2020-07-20  9:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 02:47:08AM -0600, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> ISTR that A/UX was nothing special as a Unix.  Am I failing to remember?

No, that's absolutely true.

It was a fairly plain-jane SVR2.2 with some back-ported bits from SVR3 (and 
perhaps some SVR4?), mostly for networking and filesystem work.

However, it's an interesting setup in the fact how it ran the a normal MacOS
instance basically 'virtualised' next to it and allowed some limited 
interaction between the two.

Also the Mac IIfx was basically desgined and built for AU/X and had on-board 
hardware that was way over-specced for plain MacOS. The hardware really
was more UNIX workstation than Mac.

Eg. it had full DMA support on most I/O and such.. Unheard of on simpler 
macs and not even used by MacOS of the day which simply ignored that
an ran everything in PIO mode happily.

Mid 90's I did a number of UUCP and (Send)Mail, Usenet, etc. setups on 
these and by some creative interaction with the MacOS side and clients
it allowed the 'Mac ecosystem' LAN and software of the day to send and receive
'internet' mail and such. (leased lines in Europe were very, very expensive
and slow until the late 90's and early 00's so UUCP and dailup was quite
common for a long time for small businesses..)

It was a time that Apple engineers were really making some strides to
kickstart a change to a *IX based multitasking MacOS, but it all fizzled
out as A/UX was never succesful and Apple at the time was not in the 
best of spots finance-wise.

As such, it's an 'interesting oddball' in UNIX history IMHO, but not from
a viewpoint of having brought anything new or revolutionary to the table 
that has stuck around.

							Bye, Arno.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20  8:47                     ` [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic] arnold
  2020-07-20  9:46                       ` Arno Griffioen
@ 2020-07-20  9:48                       ` Andrew Warkentin
  2020-07-20 11:49                         ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-20 12:32                       ` Derrik Walker v2.0
  2020-07-20 14:28                       ` Clem Cole
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Warkentin @ 2020-07-20  9:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 7/19/20, Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote:
>
> Maybe if someone could rip the 680[34]0+MMU bits out of Win/FS-UAE
> (Amiga emulator) and patch them into Basilisk II (Mac 68K emulator),
> A/UX might work there.
>
Basilisk will never run anything other than Mac OS, not because it
lacks an MMU, but because it HLEs everything other than the CPU,
patching the Mac OS ROM to call drivers implemented on the host. A
better idea would be to fix MAME's NCR 5380 SCSI device model
to work properly, because AFAIK that's the only thing that stops it
from running A/UX. I did look at it a bit quite a while ago, but had
other stuff to work on, so it fell by the wayside for me.

On 7/20/20, arnold@skeeve.com <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
> ISTR that A/UX was nothing special as a Unix.  Am I failing to remember?
>
> I had had a DMD 5620 at my job, and after I moved to a different place
> and requested one, they graced me with a Macintosh.  It could sort of
> do multiple windows, but it was like having a piper cub after being
> used to a 747.
>
> Other interesting bits for the Mac to maybe recover would be Mach Ten,
> which ran Mach on top of regular MacOS. (Talk about inverted pyramids...)
> There was also a Mach/Linux that I think ran on the Mac at some point.
>
A/UX runs Mac OS as a Unix process (its default GUI is Mac OS although
it does also support a traditional X server), making it the opposite
of MachTen. It has considerable integration between Mac OS and Unix,
and supports "hybrid" programs (Unix programs that make Mac OS system
calls and Mac OS programs that make Unix system calls) (which I don't
think MachTen supports, but I'm not completely sure of that). It is
one of only two Unices that I'm aware of that runs another OS in a
process to provide its main GUI (the other is a much more recent Linux
distribution that runs AROS; I'm not counting  things like running
Windows under Merge or VP/IX because those were usually used in
addition to X11).

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20  9:48                       ` Andrew Warkentin
@ 2020-07-20 11:49                         ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-20 14:36                           ` Clem Cole
                                             ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-20 11:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Andrew Warkentin; +Cc: tuhs

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 03:48:29AM -0600, Andrew Warkentin wrote:
> A/UX runs Mac OS as a Unix process (its default GUI is Mac OS although
> it does also support a traditional X server), making it the opposite
> of MachTen. It has considerable integration between Mac OS and Unix,
> and supports "hybrid" programs (Unix programs that make Mac OS system
> calls and Mac OS programs that make Unix system calls) (which I don't
> think MachTen supports, but I'm not completely sure of that). It is
> one of only two Unices that I'm aware of that runs another OS in a
> process to provide its main GUI (the other is a much more recent Linux
> distribution that runs AROS; I'm not counting  things like running
> Windows under Merge or VP/IX because those were usually used in
> addition to X11).

This isn't quite the same but Victor Yodaiken wrote a real time kernel
that ran all of Linux as a user process.  Super cool idea and it worked
great, he would demo it sampling the parallel port while Linux was running
some X11 perf thing, tarring up /usr and untarring on nfs://server/tmp/usr
and doing a ftp transfer.  Basically beating the crap out of Linux as
hard as he could while running a real time sampler and it never missed.

Clem should pay attention, in my opinion, this is how you do Unix and
real time.  Because Unix is time sharing and throughput, that is the
opposite of what real time is.  Wedging real time into Unix is a mistake.

http://mcvoy.com/lm/papers/rtlmanifesto.pdf

--lm

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was  Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20  8:47                     ` [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic] arnold
  2020-07-20  9:46                       ` Arno Griffioen
  2020-07-20  9:48                       ` Andrew Warkentin
@ 2020-07-20 12:32                       ` Derrik Walker v2.0
  2020-07-20 12:54                         ` Andrew Warkentin
  2020-07-22  3:44                         ` Jason
  2020-07-20 14:28                       ` Clem Cole
  3 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Derrik Walker v2.0 @ 2020-07-20 12:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

I used Mach10 and Later MkLinux as my UNIXy systems while in College before I got my first Sun Workstation in the mid ’90’s. 

Interestingly enough. MkLinux was actually ported to Old World PowerMacs by Apple and HP.  I think they also made.a version PCs too.

And Mach10 was interesting.  Different.  I also had Minix for the Mac, it worked much the same, as an app that sat onto of MacOS.  

- Derrik 

> On Jul 20, 2020, at 4:47 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> ISTR that A/UX was nothing special as a Unix.  Am I failing to remember?
> 
> I had had a DMD 5620 at my job, and after I moved to a different place
> and requested one, they graced me with a Macintosh.  It could sort of
> do multiple windows, but it was like having a piper cub after being
> used to a 747.
> 
> Other interesting bits for the Mac to maybe recover would be Mach Ten,
> which ran Mach on top of regular MacOS. (Talk about inverted pyramids...)
> There was also a Mach/Linux that I think ran on the Mac at some point.
> 
> Arnold
> 
> Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 2020-07-18 23:42, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
>>> On 7/18/20 9:46 PM, Wesley Parish wrote:
>>>> I'd still love to have that running.
>>> 
>>> I think I've seen articles about people running it running
>>> virtualization / emulation.
>> 
>> As far as I've been able to find, there is only one emulator that can 
>> run A/UX, shoebill[0].
>> 
>> I've got a Mac Quadra 950 with a Workgroup Server 95 card in it in the 
>> garage that I've been planning on someday trying to get A/UX running on, 
>> but haven't found enough round tuits.
>> 
>> Maybe if someone could rip the 680[34]0+MMU bits out of Win/FS-UAE 
>> (Amiga emulator) and patch them into Basilisk II (Mac 68K emulator), 
>> A/UX might work there.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Michael Parson
>> Pflugerville, TX
>> KF5LGQ
>> 
>> [0] https://github.com/emaculation/shoebill
> 


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 12:32                       ` Derrik Walker v2.0
@ 2020-07-20 12:54                         ` Andrew Warkentin
  2020-07-21  1:50                           ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-22  3:44                         ` Jason
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Warkentin @ 2020-07-20 12:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 7/20/20, Derrik Walker v2.0 <dwalker@doomd.net> wrote:
>
> Interestingly enough. MkLinux was actually ported to Old World PowerMacs by
> Apple and HP.  I think they also made.a version PCs too.
>

There was an early version of MkLinux for PCs but I'm not sure if
there was ever a complete distribution.

On 7/20/20, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> This isn't quite the same but Victor Yodaiken wrote a real time kernel
> that ran all of Linux as a user process.  Super cool idea and it worked
> great, he would demo it sampling the parallel port while Linux was running
> some X11 perf thing, tarring up /usr and untarring on nfs://server/tmp/usr
> and doing a ftp transfer.  Basically beating the crap out of Linux as
> hard as he could while running a real time sampler and it never missed.
>
> Clem should pay attention, in my opinion, this is how you do Unix and
> real time.  Because Unix is time sharing and throughput, that is the
> opposite of what real time is.  Wedging real time into Unix is a mistake.
>

QNX manages to do realtime fairly decently while still being
Unix-like, although it's certainly not a conventional Unix. With a
multi-server OS with a properly designed microkernel, it is possible
for realtime threads to more or less ignore the fact that they're
running on a Unix-like OS (provided that they can access some kind of
IPC API that closely matches that of the kernel) since all the OS
services other than the microkernel are running beside them at
non-realtime priorities, and not underneath them as in a conventional
OS. It's kind of doing the same thing as running a Unix kernel as a
process under a realtime kernel, but the Unix environment is
implemented by servers and libraries instead of a monolithic kernel.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20  8:47                     ` [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic] arnold
                                         ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2020-07-20 12:32                       ` Derrik Walker v2.0
@ 2020-07-20 14:28                       ` Clem Cole
  2020-07-22  3:50                         ` Jason
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2020-07-20 14:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Aharon Robbins; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 627 bytes --]

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 4:49 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:

> Other interesting bits for the Mac to maybe recover would be Mach Ten,
> which ran Mach on top of regular MacOS. (Talk about inverted pyramids...)
>
Interesting (not sure I would say 'cool').  I saw running it once next to
NeXT Cube when I was visiting some friends in the Mach group at CMU at some
point. I had always been under the impression it just used MacOS 7 to load
it and then took over the system.  But I never ran 'under it' as it were.

> There was also a Mach/Linux that I think ran on the Mac at some point.

I think I remember seeing that announced.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 11:49                         ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-07-20 14:36                           ` Clem Cole
  2020-07-20 17:24                           ` John Cowan
  2020-07-20 22:11                           ` Ed Carp
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2020-07-20 14:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 7:51 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> This isn't quite the same but Victor Yodaiken wrote a real time kernel
> that ran all of Linux as a user process.  Super cool idea and it worked
> great, he would demo it sampling the parallel port while Linux was running
> some X11 perf thing, tarring up /usr and untarring on nfs://server/tmp/usr
> and doing a ftp transfer.  Basically beating the crap out of Linux as
> hard as he could while running a real time sampler and it never missed.
>
> Clem should pay attention, in my opinion, this is how you do Unix and
> real time.  Because Unix is time sharing and throughput, that is the
> opposite of what real time is.  Wedging real time into Unix is a mistake.
>
> http://mcvoy.com/lm/papers/rtlmanifesto.pdf

As often true, I really don't disagree with you.  Around the time I left
Masscomp for Stellar we were working on a rewrite with some ex-CMU folks
(Doug ... I don't remember is his last name now) that used a preemptive RT
microkernel under the covers and then supplied RTU system calls.  Tom and I
left for Stellar and a couple of other people left too.  This was time of
the reign of Mr. Potato Head (ex-IBM guy that was named CEO) and things
blew up.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20  9:46                       ` Arno Griffioen
@ 2020-07-20 16:35                         ` Arthur Krewat
  2020-07-20 17:44                           ` Arno Griffioen
  2020-07-20 19:07                         ` Rich Morin
  2020-07-20 20:20                         ` Ed Carp
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2020-07-20 16:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 7/20/2020 5:46 AM, Arno Griffioen wrote:
> Mid 90's I did a number of UUCP and (Send)Mail, Usenet, etc. setups on
> these and by some creative interaction with the MacOS side and clients
> it allowed the 'Mac ecosystem' LAN and software of the day to send and receive
> 'internet' mail and such.
I was involved in USENET back in the early-to-mid 90's, and never heard 
of Mac stuff going on, but then, I'm in the US. The USENET stuff I built 
was Intel as front-end w/SVR4.2, and SPARC (-LX) as the backend file 
server. I never realized there was any sort of "-nix" for Macs back then.

art k.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 11:49                         ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-20 14:36                           ` Clem Cole
@ 2020-07-20 17:24                           ` John Cowan
  2020-07-20 22:11                           ` Ed Carp
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: John Cowan @ 2020-07-20 17:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 7:51 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:


> This isn't quite the same but Victor Yodaiken wrote a real time kernel
> that ran all of Linux as a user process.


The Bell Labs MERT system did almost the same thing: its low-priority
process was a Unix emulator along the lines of MS WSL 1.  See <
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-Environment_Real-Time> for basics and
links.

Similarly, the PDP-8's modular real-time system RTS/8 had a symbiotic
relationship with OS/8, the single-user operating system; you programmed
and built instances of RTS/8 under OS/8 and then booted them, but if you
had enough memory, you could include the OS8 [sic] task in the RTS build
and it would run OS/8 as the lowest priority task.



John Cowan          http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan        cowan@ccil.org
This great college [Trinity], of this ancient university [Cambridge],
has seen some strange sights. It has seen Wordsworth drunk and Porson
sober. And here am I, a better poet than Porson, and a better scholar
than Wordsworth, somewhere betwixt and between.  --A.E. Housman

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 16:35                         ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2020-07-20 17:44                           ` Arno Griffioen
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Arno Griffioen @ 2020-07-20 17:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 12:35:44PM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> On 7/20/2020 5:46 AM, Arno Griffioen wrote:
> > Mid 90's I did a number of UUCP and (Send)Mail, Usenet, etc. setups on
> > these and by some creative interaction with the MacOS side and clients
> > it allowed the 'Mac ecosystem' LAN and software of the day to send and receive
> > 'internet' mail and such.
> I was involved in USENET back in the early-to-mid 90's, and never heard of
> Mac stuff going on, but then, I'm in the US. The USENET stuff I built was
> Intel as front-end w/SVR4.2, and SPARC (-LX) as the backend file server. I
> never realized there was any sort of "-nix" for Macs back then.

To be fair.. The number of installs I did on SCO boxes and such far, far 
outnumbered those of A/UX ones. 

They were pretty special in those days, not to mention horrendously expensive 
if you compared a fully loaded IIfx with A/UX to a 486 with SCO UNIX, even on 
a decent Compaq.

SCO being pretty much the bread&butter of most small to medium companies
at that time to run things like their accounting software and such across 
many remote terminals (either actual ones or other PC's telnetting in..).

							Bye, Arno.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was  Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20  9:46                       ` Arno Griffioen
  2020-07-20 16:35                         ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2020-07-20 19:07                         ` Rich Morin
  2020-07-20 19:45                           ` Al Kossow
  2020-07-20 20:20                         ` Ed Carp
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Rich Morin @ 2020-07-20 19:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

My spouse (Vicki Brown) worked in the initial A/UX group and I contracted for it (reviewing the man pages).  Here are a few historical tidbits...

A number of A/UX boxes were purchased and immediately reloaded with Mac OS (because only the A/UX boxes were available with 80 MB disk drives).

A/UX had an "Eschatology" feature whose purpose was to bring a damaged operting system back to a known working state.  It was based on a text file of metadata and a small set of replacement files (e.g., commands).

The A/UX installation kit was delivered on several dozen floppy disks.  In order to minimize the number of disks, Vicki implemented a bin packing algorithm.  It grabbed promising sets of files, compressed them, and checked the resulting size.

One challenge in building the kit was creating a boot floppy.  To make this possible, Vicki created a precursor to busybox: a single program which ran under various names, providing subsets of common commands' functionalities.  Because this shared the libraries, it saved lots of space...

-r


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 19:07                         ` Rich Morin
@ 2020-07-20 19:45                           ` Al Kossow
  2020-07-20 19:49                             ` Al Kossow
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Al Kossow @ 2020-07-20 19:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 7/20/20 12:07 PM, Rich Morin wrote:
> A number of A/UX boxes were purchased and immediately reloaded with Mac OS (because only the A/UX boxes were available with 80 MB disk drives).

A/UX didn't get a whole lot of love inside Apple in the 80s.
I remember going to the talk on the version that introduced Mac as a process and
there were less than a dozen people who attended.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 19:45                           ` Al Kossow
@ 2020-07-20 19:49                             ` Al Kossow
  2020-07-24  0:01                               ` Chris Hanson
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Al Kossow @ 2020-07-20 19:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 7/20/20 12:45 PM, Al Kossow wrote:

> A/UX didn't get a whole lot of love inside Apple in the 80s.
> I remember going to the talk on the version that introduced Mac as a process and
> there were less than a dozen people who attended.
> 
> 
> 

I also had one of the few copies of MacMach that ran on a IIfx.
No one in Cupertino was very interested in Mach.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20  9:46                       ` Arno Griffioen
  2020-07-20 16:35                         ` Arthur Krewat
  2020-07-20 19:07                         ` Rich Morin
@ 2020-07-20 20:20                         ` Ed Carp
  2020-07-20 21:02                           ` John Cowan
  2020-07-24  0:02                           ` Chris Hanson
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Ed Carp @ 2020-07-20 20:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Arno Griffioen; +Cc: tuhs

On 7/20/20, Arno Griffioen <arno.griffioen@ieee.org> wrote:

> As such, it's an 'interesting oddball' in UNIX history IMHO, but not from
> a viewpoint of having brought anything new or revolutionary to the table
> that has stuck around.

Except that it had a rudimentary option completion feature that was
sort of cool. When you typed "ls", for example, it would pop up a
window that would show you all the options that you could select for
that command. That was new and different. Too bad it didn't stick
around.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 20:20                         ` Ed Carp
@ 2020-07-20 21:02                           ` John Cowan
  2020-07-20 22:27                             ` Ed Carp
                                               ` (2 more replies)
  2020-07-24  0:02                           ` Chris Hanson
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: John Cowan @ 2020-07-20 21:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ed Carp; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 4:21 PM Ed Carp <erc@pobox.com> wrote:

Except that it had a rudimentary option completion feature that was
> sort of cool. When you typed "ls", for example, it would pop up a
> window that would show you all the options that you could select for
> that command. That was new and different. Too bad it didn't stick
> around.
>

I remember reading about something like that, though it's not connected in
my mind with A/UX.  What I do remember is that you had to type "Ls" to pop
up the options window: After all, most of the time you don't *want* options
for  "ls".  On a text terminal, the top half of the screen became the
options window; its scrolling content was restored when the window was
dismissed.

The window had checkboxes corresponding to the options and text fields
corresponding to their values, if any.  I can't remember if it parsed the
output of --help or equivalent, though.  I also don't recall if such
commands were supported in pipelines, though I see no reason why they
should not have been.



John Cowan          http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan        cowan@ccil.org
Samuel Johnson on playing the violin: "Difficult do you call it, Sir?
I wish it were impossible."

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 11:49                         ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-20 14:36                           ` Clem Cole
  2020-07-20 17:24                           ` John Cowan
@ 2020-07-20 22:11                           ` Ed Carp
  2020-07-21  1:04                             ` Larry McVoy
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Ed Carp @ 2020-07-20 22:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: tuhs

On 7/20/20, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> Clem should pay attention, in my opinion, this is how you do Unix and
> real time.  Because Unix is time sharing and throughput, that is the
> opposite of what real time is.  Wedging real time into Unix is a mistake.

Agreed.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 21:02                           ` John Cowan
@ 2020-07-20 22:27                             ` Ed Carp
  2020-07-24  0:04                             ` Chris Hanson
  2020-07-31 23:02                             ` Dave Horsfall
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Ed Carp @ 2020-07-20 22:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Cowan; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On 7/20/20, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

> The window had checkboxes corresponding to the options and text fields
> corresponding to their values, if any.  I can't remember if it parsed the
> output of --help or equivalent, though.  I also don't recall if such
> commands were supported in pipelines, though I see no reason why they
> should not have been.

They were, as I recall. I don't recall if it parsed --help or if it
was builtin via another mechanism.

As someone else mentioned, A/UX didn't get a lot of love in Cupertino. Oh, well.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 22:11                           ` Ed Carp
@ 2020-07-21  1:04                             ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-22  3:13                               ` tytso
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-21  1:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ed Carp; +Cc: tuhs

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 05:11:48PM -0500, Ed Carp wrote:
> On 7/20/20, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> 
> > Clem should pay attention, in my opinion, this is how you do Unix and
> > real time.  Because Unix is time sharing and throughput, that is the
> > opposite of what real time is.  Wedging real time into Unix is a mistake.
> 
> Agreed.

So many people get this wrong, they want to make "real time" in Unix "good
enough" and it messes with everything.  Victor's idea was awesome.

And you know what sucks?  I was on the Usenix review committee and I gave
it 2 thumbs up but someone else, looking at you, Rob, said it was not 
interesting because the real time kernel wasn't POSIX.  Even though the
real time kernel had pipes, signals, and shared memory with Linux.

He was a bigger deal than me so it didn't get published.

I love the Rob in question, not Pike, but this was one of the most bone
headed calls I've ever seen him make.  The world needed to see this.

Wind River bought it and buried it because it competed with their stuff
that was nowhere near as good.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 12:54                         ` Andrew Warkentin
@ 2020-07-21  1:50                           ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-21  2:30                             ` Gregg Levine
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-21  1:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Andrew Warkentin; +Cc: tuhs

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 06:54:40AM -0600, Andrew Warkentin wrote:
> On 7/20/20, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > This isn't quite the same but Victor Yodaiken wrote a real time kernel
> > that ran all of Linux as a user process.  Super cool idea and it worked
> > great, he would demo it sampling the parallel port while Linux was running
> > some X11 perf thing, tarring up /usr and untarring on nfs://server/tmp/usr
> > and doing a ftp transfer.  Basically beating the crap out of Linux as
> > hard as he could while running a real time sampler and it never missed.
> >
> > Clem should pay attention, in my opinion, this is how you do Unix and
> > real time.  Because Unix is time sharing and throughput, that is the
> > opposite of what real time is.  Wedging real time into Unix is a mistake.
> >
> 
> QNX manages to do realtime fairly decently while still being
> Unix-like, although it's certainly not a conventional Unix. With a
> multi-server OS with a properly designed microkernel, it is possible
> for realtime threads to more or less ignore the fact that they're
> running on a Unix-like OS (provided that they can access some kind of
> IPC API that closely matches that of the kernel) since all the OS
> services other than the microkernel are running beside them at
> non-realtime priorities, and not underneath them as in a conventional
> OS. It's kind of doing the same thing as running a Unix kernel as a
> process under a realtime kernel, but the Unix environment is
> implemented by servers and libraries instead of a monolithic kernel.

QNX is awesome.

I was friends with Dan Hildebrandt, he was one of the 3 people who were
allowed to touch the microkernel code.  That kernel could fit easily in
a 4K instruction cache and leave room for other processes.  They measured
everything in cache misses, every commit had them thinking about cache
misses.

I'm definitely a unikernel guy but I had mad respect for QNX, Dan and
I would talk often about stuff, like how would this work in your world
and how would it work in my world.  The QNX core team was amazing.

Sadly, we lost Dan to brain cancer (I think) in 1998.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-21  1:50                           ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-07-21  2:30                             ` Gregg Levine
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Gregg Levine @ 2020-07-21  2:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: tuhs

Hello!
Larry? I'm surprised. I've worked with QNX a few times. I also grok
that you're one who has mad respect for QNX. Because I'm one also.
It's an interesting OS,
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 9:53 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 06:54:40AM -0600, Andrew Warkentin wrote:
> > On 7/20/20, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > > This isn't quite the same but Victor Yodaiken wrote a real time kernel
> > > that ran all of Linux as a user process.  Super cool idea and it worked
> > > great, he would demo it sampling the parallel port while Linux was running
> > > some X11 perf thing, tarring up /usr and untarring on nfs://server/tmp/usr
> > > and doing a ftp transfer.  Basically beating the crap out of Linux as
> > > hard as he could while running a real time sampler and it never missed.
> > >
> > > Clem should pay attention, in my opinion, this is how you do Unix and
> > > real time.  Because Unix is time sharing and throughput, that is the
> > > opposite of what real time is.  Wedging real time into Unix is a mistake.
> > >
> >
> > QNX manages to do realtime fairly decently while still being
> > Unix-like, although it's certainly not a conventional Unix. With a
> > multi-server OS with a properly designed microkernel, it is possible
> > for realtime threads to more or less ignore the fact that they're
> > running on a Unix-like OS (provided that they can access some kind of
> > IPC API that closely matches that of the kernel) since all the OS
> > services other than the microkernel are running beside them at
> > non-realtime priorities, and not underneath them as in a conventional
> > OS. It's kind of doing the same thing as running a Unix kernel as a
> > process under a realtime kernel, but the Unix environment is
> > implemented by servers and libraries instead of a monolithic kernel.
>
> QNX is awesome.
>
> I was friends with Dan Hildebrandt, he was one of the 3 people who were
> allowed to touch the microkernel code.  That kernel could fit easily in
> a 4K instruction cache and leave room for other processes.  They measured
> everything in cache misses, every commit had them thinking about cache
> misses.
>
> I'm definitely a unikernel guy but I had mad respect for QNX, Dan and
> I would talk often about stuff, like how would this work in your world
> and how would it work in my world.  The QNX core team was amazing.
>
> Sadly, we lost Dan to brain cancer (I think) in 1998.
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-21  1:04                             ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-07-22  3:13                               ` tytso
  2020-07-22  5:40                                 ` Bakul Shah
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: tytso @ 2020-07-22  3:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: tuhs

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 06:04:11PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 05:11:48PM -0500, Ed Carp wrote:
> > On 7/20/20, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Clem should pay attention, in my opinion, this is how you do Unix and
> > > real time.  Because Unix is time sharing and throughput, that is the
> > > opposite of what real time is.  Wedging real time into Unix is a mistake.
> > 
> > Agreed.
> 
> So many people get this wrong, they want to make "real time" in Unix "good
> enough" and it messes with everything.  Victor's idea was awesome.
> 
> And you know what sucks?  I was on the Usenix review committee and I gave
> it 2 thumbs up but someone else, looking at you, Rob, said it was not 
> interesting because the real time kernel wasn't POSIX.  Even though the
> real time kernel had pipes, signals, and shared memory with Linux.
> 
> He was a bigger deal than me so it didn't get published.
> 
> I love the Rob in question, not Pike, but this was one of the most bone
> headed calls I've ever seen him make.  The world needed to see this.

Never fear, Victor's work got published in a number of Linux
conference, so it wasn't totally buried.

> Wind River bought it and buried it because it competed with their stuff
> that was nowhere near as good.

I can't get into the mind of Wind River. but having worked on a
commercial real-time extension to Linux, and having gotten a IBM
Systems Journal publication[1] out of it, I have a slightly different
perspective.

[1] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5386551

The issue is that there aren't that many good real-time programmers
Tavailable.  Furthermore, many real-time applications need to do a lot
more than data acquisition, so having access to POSIX API's in the
real time task is very attractive.  Sure, you can try to interchange
information between the real-time task and the POSIX task, but that's
a lot more complicated, and that's where the "not enough real-time
programmers" rears its head again.

This is even worse if you are working in a military application, since
small population of "can program real-time programmers" is further
reduced by "can get a security clearance".

Fortunately, with modern, fast CPU's, it's possible to do real-time
via brute force, and as it turns out, there are a very large number ofJ
real-time tasks which can deal with real-time latency that are tens of
milliseconds, at which point you even use real-time Java with a
real-time garbage collector running on a real-time Linux.  And that's
what Raytheon and the US Navy chose to use on their Zumwalt Class
destroyers, and that's how I and my team got the IBM Systems Journal
publication.   :-)

Sure, there will be some number of real-time task which needs
single-digit millisecond real-time guarantees --- in which case you
can write it in C using Real-time Linux.  And for those really cases
where you need latencies which are in the tens of microsecnds; then
yeah, at that point you might need specialized OS's.  But the cases
where you need fast, hard real-time is pretty rare compared to those
cases where real-time Java is sufficient.

Cheers,

					- Ted

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-18 20:22           ` Ed Carp
  2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-07-22  3:41             ` Jason
  2020-07-22 16:15               ` Michael Parson
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Jason @ 2020-07-22  3:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ed Carp, Michael Kjörling; +Cc: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1210 bytes --]


  
  
  
    
    	
    	The emulator Shoebill can run A/UX
https://github.com/pruten/Shoebill

It’s pretty awesome.
    	

    	3.0 is the last version that is stable(ish).  Naturally the MacOS installer won’t run so a bunch of Unix legwork is required.
I’m not sure if this email will make the list but I’ll try....
Anyway the developer of Shoebill got snapped up by a certain fruit vendor so no updates...

As for A/UX it’s SYSV with the c and fortran compilers built in.  Apparently it was going to be Steve’s “Big Mac” project that was sidelined after he was pushed out.  Although there is so many crazy rumours of that window at the end of Apple and the start of NeXT.
    
  




On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 4:24 AM +0800, "Ed Carp" <erc@pobox.com> wrote:










Oh, boy, now you've got me started. I worked on A/UX at Apple back
around 1992. I'd love to find a copy of that!

On 7/17/20, Michael Kjörling  wrote:

> Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
> criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
> possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
> A/UX.






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* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was  Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 12:32                       ` Derrik Walker v2.0
  2020-07-20 12:54                         ` Andrew Warkentin
@ 2020-07-22  3:44                         ` Jason
  2020-07-22 12:23                           ` Derrik Walker v2.0
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Jason @ 2020-07-22  3:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Derrik Walker v2.0, tuhs

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    	MachTen was interesting as heck to find.  I ran it on a LC recently and it was so slow.  I couldn’t work out how to build a linker, but I got a cross compiler (GCC) set your a sun-2 target and gas just worked fine letting me use my Xeon for cross compiling on NFS, and just linking on the Mac.
With only a 68020 it’s just too slow, and with no mmu it’s just too unstable.   But the cool factor is awesome.
Sadly my attempt at building gopher didn’t work so well.
    	

    	

    
  




On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 8:33 PM +0800, "Derrik Walker v2.0" <dwalker@doomd.net> wrote:










I used Mach10 and Later MkLinux as my UNIXy systems while in College before I got my first Sun Workstation in the mid ’90’s. 

Interestingly enough. MkLinux was actually ported to Old World PowerMacs by Apple and HP.  I think they also made.a version PCs too.

And Mach10 was interesting.  Different.  I also had Minix for the Mac, it worked much the same, as an app that sat onto of MacOS.  

- Derrik 

> On Jul 20, 2020, at 4:47 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> ISTR that A/UX was nothing special as a Unix.  Am I failing to remember?
> 
> I had had a DMD 5620 at my job, and after I moved to a different place
> and requested one, they graced me with a Macintosh.  It could sort of
> do multiple windows, but it was like having a piper cub after being
> used to a 747.
> 
> Other interesting bits for the Mac to maybe recover would be Mach Ten,
> which ran Mach on top of regular MacOS. (Talk about inverted pyramids...)
> There was also a Mach/Linux that I think ran on the Mac at some point.
> 
> Arnold
> 
> Michael Parson  wrote:
> 
>> On 2020-07-18 23:42, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
>>> On 7/18/20 9:46 PM, Wesley Parish wrote:
>>>> I'd still love to have that running.
>>> 
>>> I think I've seen articles about people running it running
>>> virtualization / emulation.
>> 
>> As far as I've been able to find, there is only one emulator that can 
>> run A/UX, shoebill[0].
>> 
>> I've got a Mac Quadra 950 with a Workgroup Server 95 card in it in the 
>> garage that I've been planning on someday trying to get A/UX running on, 
>> but haven't found enough round tuits.
>> 
>> Maybe if someone could rip the 680[34]0+MMU bits out of Win/FS-UAE 
>> (Amiga emulator) and patch them into Basilisk II (Mac 68K emulator), 
>> A/UX might work there.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Michael Parson
>> Pflugerville, TX
>> KF5LGQ
>> 
>> [0] https://github.com/emaculation/shoebill
> 






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* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 14:28                       ` Clem Cole
@ 2020-07-22  3:50                         ` Jason
  2020-07-22  4:26                           ` Henry Bent
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Jason @ 2020-07-22  3:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole, Aharon Robbins; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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    	MachTen runs as a background accessory on MacOS.  Apparently it’ll turn on mmu protection if you have one.
But you are still able to run macOS software just fine.
A/UX boots macOS, then loads a loader app that takes over the machine and boots the kernel.  The emulator Shoebill “cheats” and reads the kernel from the UFS disk directly and jumps to that.
    	

    	Previous (the emulator) runs all the versions of nextstep for the 68k machines but also supports the true colour card, along with i860 emulation.
It’s pretty impressive what can be done with processors in the multiple GHz range with megabytes of l2/l3 cache.


    
  
From: TUHS <tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org> on behalf of Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com>
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 10:30 PM
To: Aharon Robbins
Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society
Subject: Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic] 

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 4:49 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
Other interesting bits for the Mac to maybe recover would be Mach Ten,

which ran Mach on top of regular MacOS. (Talk about inverted pyramids...)
Interesting (not sure I would say 'cool').  I saw running it once next to NeXT Cube when I was visiting some friends in the Mach group at CMU at some point. I had always been under the impression it just used MacOS 7 to load it and then took over the system.  But I never ran 'under it' as it were. 
There was also a Mach/Linux that I think ran on the Mac at some point.I think I remember seeing that announced. 

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* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-22  3:50                         ` Jason
@ 2020-07-22  4:26                           ` Henry Bent
  2020-07-24  0:10                             ` Chris Hanson
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Henry Bent @ 2020-07-22  4:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jason; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 at 23:53, Jason <jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:

>
> A/UX boots macOS, then loads a loader app that takes over the machine and
> boots the kernel.  The emulator Shoebill “cheats” and reads the kernel from
> the UFS disk directly and jumps to that.
>
>
That was always really funny to me.  Your machine boots MacOS, presumably
because it was easier to let it deal with hardware initialization than to
rewrite it, then hands control over to A/UX which promptly runs MacOS as a
Unix process.  Which you can kill.

Oberlin College had a Workgroup Server 95, basically a repurposed Quadra
950, running as an AppleShare file server for a significant number of
users.  That was how Apple was marketing these things, and thinking about
it - use our Unix to serve your MacOS boxes!  But we have no real interest
in Unix, just buy more MacOS boxes!  See: Apple Network Server.

I remember my father mentioning talking to someone from Apple at a USENIX,
probably late '80s or very early '90s, and them admitting that A/UX was
essentially a glorified public beta.  That might have been in the A/UX 1.0
or 2.0 timeframe but it says a lot about the sorts of resources Apple was
dedicating to the idea.

-Henry

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* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-22  3:13                               ` tytso
@ 2020-07-22  5:40                                 ` Bakul Shah
  2020-07-22 14:16                                   ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2020-07-22  5:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Jul 21, 2020, at 8:13 PM, tytso@mit.edu wrote:
> 
> The issue is that there aren't that many good real-time programmers
> Tavailable.  Furthermore, many real-time applications need to do a lot
> more than data acquisition, so having access to POSIX API's in the
> real time task is very attractive.  Sure, you can try to interchange
> information between the real-time task and the POSIX task, but that's
> a lot more complicated, and that's where the "not enough real-time
> programmers" rears its head again.
> 
> ...
> Sure, there will be some number of real-time task which needs
> single-digit millisecond real-time guarantees --- in which case you
> can write it in C using Real-time Linux.  And for those really cases
> where you need latencies which are in the tens of microsecnds; then
> yeah, at that point you might need specialized OS's.  But the cases
> where you need fast, hard real-time is pretty rare compared to those
> cases where real-time Java is sufficient.


The approach taken by Massalin in their Synthesis Kernel seemed quite
promising. By using runtime code synthesis they were able to run realtime
music synthesis at 25Khz sampling rate on a 20Mhz 68K machine. Too bad
these ideas didn't take off. I wanted to use similar ideas in lieu of
code like netgraph (in FreeBSD) or N layers of networking code but no
tools existed. Today, on a computing device your browser may freeze
for a few seconds due to garbage collection or whatever. 

Seems to me, a bigger issue than not-enough-real-time-real-programmers
is a lack of good real time programming abstractions and tools. No way
to specify or test a timing budget or required maximum latency. There
are things like CBQ (class based queueing) for managing traffci flows
but no such general purpose support for mapping code to hardware to
meet timing and latency requirements.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was  Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-22  3:44                         ` Jason
@ 2020-07-22 12:23                           ` Derrik Walker v2.0
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Derrik Walker v2.0 @ 2020-07-22 12:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jason; +Cc: tuhs

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It’s funny you mention how slow it can be.  On a decent Mac with enough ram, it was fine.  The later PowerPC native version, running on just about any new world Mac, was really fast. 

Having said that, running it via Mini vMac on my 2020 MacBook Air, it feels about 1 million times faster than on any physical Mac I ever ran it on. 

And Gopher …. There is a program I’ve not seen in a very long time. I remember in the early days of the Power Mac, Apple released this really cool 3D gopher client.  It ran pretty well on the 6100 I had at the time.

- Derrik  

> On Jul 21, 2020, at 11:44 PM, Jason <jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
> 
> MachTen was interesting as heck to find.  I ran it on a LC recently and it was so slow.  I couldn’t work out how to build a linker, but I got a cross compiler (GCC) set your a sun-2 target and gas just worked fine letting me use my Xeon for cross compiling on NFS, and just linking on the Mac.
> 
> With only a 68020 it’s just too slow, and with no mmu it’s just too unstable.   But the cool factor is awesome.
> 
> Sadly my attempt at building gopher didn’t work so well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 8:33 PM +0800, "Derrik Walker v2.0" <dwalker@doomd.net <mailto:dwalker@doomd.net>> wrote:
> 
> I used Mach10 and Later MkLinux as my UNIXy systems while in College before I got my first Sun Workstation in the mid ’90’s. 
> 
> Interestingly enough. MkLinux was actually ported to Old World PowerMacs by Apple and HP.  I think they also made.a version PCs too.
> 
> And Mach10 was interesting.  Different.  I also had Minix for the Mac, it worked much the same, as an app that sat onto of MacOS.  
> 
> - Derrik 
> 
> > On Jul 20, 2020, at 4:47 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> > 
> > ISTR that A/UX was nothing special as a Unix.  Am I failing to remember?
> > 
> > I had had a DMD 5620 at my job, and after I moved to a different place
> > and requested one, they graced me with a Macintosh.  It could sort of
> > do multiple windows, but it was like having a piper cub after being
> > used to a 747.
> > 
> > Other interesting bits for the Mac to maybe recover would be Mach Ten,
> > which ran Mach on top of regular MacOS. (Talk about inverted pyramids...)
> > There was also a Mach/Linux that I think ran on the Mac at some point.
> > 
> > Arnold
> > 
> > Michael Parson  wrote:
> > 
> >> On 2020-07-18 23:42, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> >>> On 7/18/20 9:46 PM, Wesley Parish wrote:
> >>>> I'd still love to have that running.
> >>> 
> >>> I think I've seen articles about people running it running
> >>> virtualization / emulation.
> >> 
> >> As far as I've been able to find, there is only one emulator that can 
> >> run A/UX, shoebill[0].
> >> 
> >> I've got a Mac Quadra 950 with a Workgroup Server 95 card in it in the 
> >> garage that I've been planning on someday trying to get A/UX running on, 
> >> but haven't found enough round tuits.
> >> 
> >> Maybe if someone could rip the 680[34]0+MMU bits out of Win/FS-UAE 
> >> (Amiga emulator) and patch them into Basilisk II (Mac 68K emulator), 
> >> A/UX might work there.
> >> 
> >> -- 
> >> Michael Parson
> >> Pflugerville, TX
> >> KF5LGQ
> >> 
> >> [0] https://github.com/emaculation/shoebill
> > 


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* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-22  5:40                                 ` Bakul Shah
@ 2020-07-22 14:16                                   ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-22 14:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bakul Shah; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 10:40:21PM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
> On Jul 21, 2020, at 8:13 PM, tytso@mit.edu wrote:
> > 
> > The issue is that there aren't that many good real-time programmers
> > Tavailable.  Furthermore, many real-time applications need to do a lot
> > more than data acquisition, so having access to POSIX API's in the
> > real time task is very attractive.  Sure, you can try to interchange
> > information between the real-time task and the POSIX task, but that's
> > a lot more complicated, and that's where the "not enough real-time
> > programmers" rears its head again.
> > 
> > ...
> > Sure, there will be some number of real-time task which needs
> > single-digit millisecond real-time guarantees --- in which case you
> > can write it in C using Real-time Linux.  And for those really cases
> > where you need latencies which are in the tens of microsecnds; then
> > yeah, at that point you might need specialized OS's.  But the cases
> > where you need fast, hard real-time is pretty rare compared to those
> > cases where real-time Java is sufficient.
> 
> 
> The approach taken by Massalin in their Synthesis Kernel seemed quite
> promising. 

One of the few CS PhD thesis worth reading.

http://www.scs.stanford.edu/nyu/04fa/sched/readings/synthesis.pdf

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-22  3:41             ` Jason
@ 2020-07-22 16:15               ` Michael Parson
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Michael Parson @ 2020-07-22 16:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 2020-07-21 22:41, Jason wrote:
> The emulator Shoebill can run A/UX
> https://github.com/pruten/Shoebill
> 
> It’s pretty awesome.
> 
> 
>     	3.0 is the last version that is stable(ish).  Naturally the MacOS
> installer won’t run so a bunch of Unix legwork is required.
> I’m not sure if this email will make the list but I’ll try....
> Anyway the developer of Shoebill got snapped up by a certain fruit
> vendor so no updates...

Guess that explains why he's not touched it since 2014.  The 
'emaculation'
github account[0] seems to be where the primary dev work on it is being 
done
now, but seems to be slow going, the last commit was Sept 2019.

> As for A/UX it’s SYSV with the c and fortran compilers built in.
>  Apparently it was going to be Steve’s “Big Mac” project that was
> sidelined after he was pushed out.  Although there is so many crazy
> rumours of that window at the end of Apple and the start of NeXT.

-- 
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
KF5LGQ

[0] https://github.com/emaculation/shoebill

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 19:49                             ` Al Kossow
@ 2020-07-24  0:01                               ` Chris Hanson
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Chris Hanson @ 2020-07-24  0:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Al Kossow; +Cc: tuhs

On Jul 20, 2020, at 12:49 PM, Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> wrote:

> I also had one of the few copies of MacMach that ran on a IIfx.
> No one in Cupertino was very interested in Mach.

I really wish this had been preserved. MacMach from what I saw meeting the last of the people involved at CMU in 1993-4 was a lot like A/UX in having System 6 as a process under Mach with BSD either colocated or running as a single server.

I have a friend who still had one of CMU's distribution CD right up until a couple years ago, when he trashed a bunch of stuff to move to another continent. :( If anyone else has one, it'd be news to me. The closest I have is an image of the bootstrap floppy; you normally got MacMach on campus by booting from a floppy that would start up a minimal Mach+BSD+shell; you would boot it, configure TCP/IP, partition your disk, and then SUP the rest of the distribution.

  -- Chris


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 20:20                         ` Ed Carp
  2020-07-20 21:02                           ` John Cowan
@ 2020-07-24  0:02                           ` Chris Hanson
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Chris Hanson @ 2020-07-24  0:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ed Carp; +Cc: tuhs

On Jul 20, 2020, at 1:20 PM, Ed Carp <erc@pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> Except that it had a rudimentary option completion feature that was
> sort of cool. When you typed "ls", for example, it would pop up a
> window that would show you all the options that you could select for
> that command. That was new and different. Too bad it didn't stick
> around.


You had to invoke Commando, it didn't pop up automatically as that'd be annoying as all heck.

Commando was also an integral part of Macintosh Programmer's Workshop, and extremely useful there for figuring  out the various commands and options.

  -- Chris


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 21:02                           ` John Cowan
  2020-07-20 22:27                             ` Ed Carp
@ 2020-07-24  0:04                             ` Chris Hanson
  2020-07-31 23:02                             ` Dave Horsfall
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Chris Hanson @ 2020-07-24  0:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Cowan; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Jul 20, 2020, at 2:02 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
> 
> The window had checkboxes corresponding to the options and text fields corresponding to their values, if any.  I can't remember if it parsed the output of --help or equivalent, though.

It was all driven by data custom-created for each command, it wasn't done by parsing -h (no --help in those days) or man pages. That would've been some combination of research project and nightmare. (It also wasn't done the VMS way, by having a nice set of libraries for defining commands and their arguments and flags and how to parse them.)

> I also don't recall if such commands were supported in pipelines, though I see no reason why they should not have been.


At least in Macintosh Programmer's Workshop, what Commando produced for you was the command line invocation, not the actual running process. So you'd type a command, invoke Commando, and when you clicked OK the command line you were entering would be updated with what you'd selected in the dialog box.

  -- Chris


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* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-22  4:26                           ` Henry Bent
@ 2020-07-24  0:10                             ` Chris Hanson
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Chris Hanson @ 2020-07-24  0:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Henry Bent; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Jul 21, 2020, at 9:26 PM, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> That was always really funny to me.  Your machine boots MacOS, presumably because it was easier to let it deal with hardware initialization than to rewrite it

This is actually because the Mac OS is already in the middle of booting, because big chunks of it were ROM-resident. The ROM didn't just exist as a bootstrap loader for any OS; it was a subset of the OS that just loaded more of itself, replaced parts of itself, etc.

This only ended with the adoption of Open Firmware by the "New World" PCI-based Power Macintosh series. Even there, the second-stage bootstrap invoked by Open Firmware to get Mac OS up and running was actually a file on disk named "Mac OS ROM."

  -- Chris


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-20 21:02                           ` John Cowan
  2020-07-20 22:27                             ` Ed Carp
  2020-07-24  0:04                             ` Chris Hanson
@ 2020-07-31 23:02                             ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-07-31 23:12                               ` Richard Salz
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2020-07-31 23:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Mon, 20 Jul 2020, John Cowan wrote:

> I remember reading about something like that, though it's not connected 
> in my mind with A/UX.  What I do remember is that you had to type "Ls" 
> to pop up the options window: After all, most of the time you don't 
> *want* options for  "ls".  On a text terminal, the top half of the 
> screen became the options window; its scrolling content was restored 
> when the window was dismissed.

I'm glad that it was sort of optional, otherwise it would annoy the hell 
out of me.

SMIT was quite nice although; although it was a GUI (which I loathe), at 
least it displayed the command that was run as a result (which was just as 
well!) so you could type it yourself if you liked.

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-31 23:02                             ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2020-07-31 23:12                               ` Richard Salz
  2020-08-01  1:36                                 ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Richard Salz @ 2020-07-31 23:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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> SMIT was quite nice


i have never seen those four words together like that before.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-07-31 23:12                               ` Richard Salz
@ 2020-08-01  1:36                                 ` Larry McVoy
  2020-08-01 16:08                                   ` Nemo Nusquam
                                                     ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-08-01  1:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Richard Salz; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 07:12:57PM -0400, Richard Salz wrote:
> > SMIT was quite nice
> 
> i have never seen those four words together like that before.

Me neither.  SMIT was HORRIBLE if you understood the files in /etc and
knew what to do with them.  It might be nice if you had no understanding
of how to admin a Unix system and here is this "nice" curses based way
to do admin.

To anyone remotely competent, and I don't mean edit sendmail.cf, I mean
you can edit inetd.conf, you can edit a crontab file, etc, SMIT was a
nightmare that made something that should be vi $FILE, done 20 seconds
later, a hellish journey through their menus.  It was AWFUL.

Ask me how I know.

--lm

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-01  1:36                                 ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-08-01 16:08                                   ` Nemo Nusquam
  2020-08-01 17:01                                     ` Arthur Krewat
  2020-08-13  0:00                                   ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-08-13 17:14                                   ` Dan Cross
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Nemo Nusquam @ 2020-08-01 16:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 07/31/20 21:36, Larry McVoy wrote (in part):
> Me neither. SMIT was HORRIBLE [...]

Hhmmm... I am reminded of the appendix "In defense of AIX" in Nemeth et 
alii.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-01 16:08                                   ` Nemo Nusquam
@ 2020-08-01 17:01                                     ` Arthur Krewat
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2020-08-01 17:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


On 8/1/2020 12:08 PM, Nemo Nusquam wrote:
> On 07/31/20 21:36, Larry McVoy wrote (in part):
>> Me neither. SMIT was HORRIBLE [...]
>
> Hhmmm... I am reminded of the appendix "In defense of AIX" in Nemeth 
> et alii.
>
SMIT had an IBM-ish-ness to it all it's own. I seem to remember it was 
pretty easy to get the commands it was running, and just use those next 
time around.

Nothing quite like having a customer's entire IT department outsourced 
to IBM, and having to go into SMIT and fix their cluster configs... 
Ah... good times.

ak

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-01  1:36                                 ` Larry McVoy
  2020-08-01 16:08                                   ` Nemo Nusquam
@ 2020-08-13  0:00                                   ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-08-13  1:47                                     ` Larry McVoy
  2020-08-13  1:53                                     ` Nemo Nusquam
  2020-08-13 17:14                                   ` Dan Cross
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2020-08-13  0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Fri, 31 Jul 2020, Larry McVoy wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 07:12:57PM -0400, Richard Salz wrote:
>>> SMIT was quite nice [ context seemingly removed ]
>>
>> i have never seen those four words together like that before.
>
> Me neither.  SMIT was HORRIBLE if you understood the files in /etc and 
> knew what to do with them.  It might be nice if you had no understanding 
> of how to admin a Unix system and here is this "nice" curses based way 
> to do admin.

SMIT was one just one of the systems that I had to sysadmin (along with 
Open/Xenix (hah!), Slowaris, PH-UX (as we called it), etc; I narrowly 
avoided Windoze, along with denying all knowledge of COBOL.

> To anyone remotely competent, and I don't mean edit sendmail.cf, I mean 
> you can edit inetd.conf, you can edit a crontab file, etc, SMIT was a 
> nightmare that made something that should be vi $FILE, done 20 seconds 
> later, a hellish journey through their menus.  It was AWFUL.

Quite, because I liked the way that SMIT showed you the obtuse command 
that was being executed, so you could run it yourself with modifications.

> Ask me how I know.

Ditto...

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13  0:00                                   ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2020-08-13  1:47                                     ` Larry McVoy
  2020-08-13  3:15                                       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-08-13  1:53                                     ` Nemo Nusquam
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-08-13  1:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

You liked SMIT, it seems, I am among a large swath of people who did not.
The SMIT I had did *not* show you what files it was editing and I ran
SMIT on 1GB main memory powerpcs.  I think it was AIX 4.something.

Maybe it got better but it was awful for me.

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 10:00:09AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Jul 2020, Larry McVoy wrote:
> 
> >On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 07:12:57PM -0400, Richard Salz wrote:
> >>>SMIT was quite nice [ context seemingly removed ]
> >>
> >>i have never seen those four words together like that before.
> >
> >Me neither.  SMIT was HORRIBLE if you understood the files in /etc and
> >knew what to do with them.  It might be nice if you had no understanding
> >of how to admin a Unix system and here is this "nice" curses based way to
> >do admin.
> 
> SMIT was one just one of the systems that I had to sysadmin (along with
> Open/Xenix (hah!), Slowaris, PH-UX (as we called it), etc; I narrowly
> avoided Windoze, along with denying all knowledge of COBOL.
> 
> >To anyone remotely competent, and I don't mean edit sendmail.cf, I mean
> >you can edit inetd.conf, you can edit a crontab file, etc, SMIT was a
> >nightmare that made something that should be vi $FILE, done 20 seconds
> >later, a hellish journey through their menus.  It was AWFUL.
> 
> Quite, because I liked the way that SMIT showed you the obtuse command that
> was being executed, so you could run it yourself with modifications.
> 
> >Ask me how I know.
> 
> Ditto...
> 
> -- Dave

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13  0:00                                   ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-08-13  1:47                                     ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-08-13  1:53                                     ` Nemo Nusquam
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Nemo Nusquam @ 2020-08-13  1:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 08/12/20 20:00, Dave Horsfall wrote (in part):
> SMIT was one just one of the systems that I had to sysadmin (along 
> with Open/Xenix (hah!), Slowaris, PH-UX (as we called it), etc; 
New one on me.  We called it H-POX.

N.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13  1:47                                     ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-08-13  3:15                                       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-08-13  4:02                                         ` Larry Cashdollar via TUHS
  2020-08-31 21:12                                         ` Dave Horsfall
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-08-13  3:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1289 bytes --]

On 8/12/20 7:47 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> The SMIT I had did*not*  show you what files it was editing

My recollection is that smit(ty) did /not/ show you the commands that 
would be run /by/ /default/.

That being said, there was a (P)F key you could press prior to 
executing, one of the many (P)F keys smit(ty) used, that would show you 
the command and all of it's arguments which would be run.

I didn't like /using/ smit(ty) for much.  But I did find it /useful/ for 
learning things which I didn't know by using the menu a few times and 
analyzing the command(s) that it would generate and run.

I think it was a really advanced form of "<bla> command example" 
searches that I see people doing on the regular.  The BIG advantage is 
that you used the menu interface to tweak parameters for your configuration.

smit(ty) also had the added advantage that it could look up possible 
values of things to put in the fields for you.

I don't know any seasoned AIX admins that use smit(ty) for their day to 
day, week to week, or even month to month activities.  Though I think 
many of them end up using smit(ty) once every year or two to look at a 
particularly obtuse command.  Sort of like a contextual aware man page.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13  3:15                                       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-08-13  4:02                                         ` Larry Cashdollar via TUHS
  2020-08-31 21:12                                         ` Dave Horsfall
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Larry Cashdollar via TUHS @ 2020-08-13  4:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: tuhs

Oh,

I remember the Smitty person running at the top that would fall down when the command failed. Good times. 

-LC$

On Aug 12, 2020, at 11:15 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:

On 8/12/20 7:47 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> The SMIT I had did*not*  show you what files it was editing

My recollection is that smit(ty) did /not/ show you the commands that would be run /by/ /default/.

That being said, there was a (P)F key you could press prior to executing, one of the many (P)F keys smit(ty) used, that would show you the command and all of it's arguments which would be run.

I didn't like /using/ smit(ty) for much.  But I did find it /useful/ for learning things which I didn't know by using the menu a few times and analyzing the command(s) that it would generate and run.

I think it was a really advanced form of "<bla> command example" searches that I see people doing on the regular.  The BIG advantage is that you used the menu interface to tweak parameters for your configuration.

smit(ty) also had the added advantage that it could look up possible values of things to put in the fields for you.

I don't know any seasoned AIX admins that use smit(ty) for their day to day, week to week, or even month to month activities.  Though I think many of them end up using smit(ty) once every year or two to look at a particularly obtuse command.  Sort of like a contextual aware man page.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-01  1:36                                 ` Larry McVoy
  2020-08-01 16:08                                   ` Nemo Nusquam
  2020-08-13  0:00                                   ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2020-08-13 17:14                                   ` Dan Cross
  2020-08-13 17:19                                     ` Henry Bent
                                                       ` (2 more replies)
  2 siblings, 3 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2020-08-13 17:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2797 bytes --]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 9:37 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 07:12:57PM -0400, Richard Salz wrote:
> > > SMIT was quite nice
> >
> > i have never seen those four words together like that before.
>
> Me neither.  SMIT was HORRIBLE if you understood the files in /etc and
> knew what to do with them.


The sysadmin in the CS department had a USENIX button on his wall: "SMIT
happens." I always found that amusing.

The Motif-version was especially horrible, and crashed all the time. The
curses-based version was called `smitty`, which I found humorous in a way I
wouldn't have expected coming from "This page intentionally left blank"
IBM. In my mind, the worst part of admining RS/6000 boxes of that era was
the little 3-digit LED code on the front: I guess those machines didn't
assume that they had either a graphical head or a serial port, so this damn
teeny tiny display would cycle through a sequence of codes that told you
what the machine was doing; it came with a book that told you what each
code meant. Something like "387" meant mounting /usr. Ugh; I just found a
page on ibm.com describing these "IPL codes."

It might be nice if you had no understanding
> of how to admin a Unix system and here is this "nice" curses based way
> to do admin.
>

The thing was that IBM changed a lot of stuff almost gratuitously.
Specifics I remember were the print daemon (I ported `lpd` from 4.4BSD for
that) and anything related to disks and filesystems. In fairness, they had
logical volumes that could split across disks before most other Unix
systems that I was working on at the time, but the commands were all custom
to AIX and, frankly, weird: I remember that one would "vary on" a logical
volume before one could mount a filesystem from it or something like that.
I was told at the time that the people who'd built that side of things had
come from the mainframe world, where that was the nomenclature. Creating
JFS filesystems required these tools as well; there was new `newfs_jfs` as
I recall. So I ended up using SMIT for basically anything related to
filesystems, but for almost nothing else.

To anyone remotely competent, and I don't mean edit sendmail.cf, I mean
> you can edit inetd.conf, you can edit a crontab file, etc, SMIT was a
> nightmare that made something that should be vi $FILE, done 20 seconds
> later, a hellish journey through their menus.  It was AWFUL.
>

One of the more gratuitous differences I remember from AIX was that instead
of having e.g. /etc/shadow, they had /etc/password (all spelled out), which
had semi-structured stanzas for each user. That was just weird.
Fortunately, we were using NIS and it was smart enough to ignore that for
NIS users.

Ask me how I know.
>

I still have nightmares about AIX.

        - Dan C.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13 17:14                                   ` Dan Cross
@ 2020-08-13 17:19                                     ` Henry Bent
  2020-08-13 17:58                                       ` Warner Losh
  2020-08-13 20:04                                       ` John Cowan
  2020-08-13 19:18                                     ` Adam Thornton
  2020-08-13 22:24                                     ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Henry Bent @ 2020-08-13 17:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dan Cross; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 at 13:16, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> The Motif-version was especially horrible, and crashed all the time. The
> curses-based version was called `smitty`, which I found humorous in a way I
> wouldn't have expected coming from "This page intentionally left blank"
> IBM. In my mind, the worst part of admining RS/6000 boxes of that era was
> the little 3-digit LED code on the front: I guess those machines didn't
> assume that they had either a graphical head or a serial port, so this damn
> teeny tiny display would cycle through a sequence of codes that told you
> what the machine was doing; it came with a book that told you what each
> code meant. Something like "387" meant mounting /usr. Ugh; I just found a
> page on ibm.com describing these "IPL codes."
>
>
That seems to have been a general IBM-ism.  The BIOSes were the same way -
they would display a series of numeric codes on the screen and if it
stopped somewhere you had to drag out the manual and look up why.

-Henry

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13 17:19                                     ` Henry Bent
@ 2020-08-13 17:58                                       ` Warner Losh
  2020-08-13 20:04                                       ` John Cowan
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2020-08-13 17:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Henry Bent; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 11:20 AM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 at 13:16, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> The Motif-version was especially horrible, and crashed all the time. The
>> curses-based version was called `smitty`, which I found humorous in a way I
>> wouldn't have expected coming from "This page intentionally left blank"
>> IBM. In my mind, the worst part of admining RS/6000 boxes of that era was
>> the little 3-digit LED code on the front: I guess those machines didn't
>> assume that they had either a graphical head or a serial port, so this damn
>> teeny tiny display would cycle through a sequence of codes that told you
>> what the machine was doing; it came with a book that told you what each
>> code meant. Something like "387" meant mounting /usr. Ugh; I just found a
>> page on ibm.com describing these "IPL codes."
>>
>>
> That seems to have been a general IBM-ism.  The BIOSes were the same way -
> they would display a series of numeric codes on the screen and if it
> stopped somewhere you had to drag out the manual and look up why.
>

I have a port 80 decoder that let's me see the same thing but w/o the need
for video to work... the same codes on the screen were outb'd to port 80...
came in handy for driver debugging too

Warner

>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13 17:14                                   ` Dan Cross
  2020-08-13 17:19                                     ` Henry Bent
@ 2020-08-13 19:18                                     ` Adam Thornton
  2020-08-13 19:28                                       ` Warner Losh
  2020-08-13 20:09                                       ` [TUHS] " Rich
  2020-08-13 22:24                                     ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Adam Thornton @ 2020-08-13 19:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dan Cross; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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Early AIX is what happens when you give a detailed description of Unix to
mainframers who've never seen Unix, and then tell them to implement that
system, and then ship it, without at any point letting someone who's used
an actual Unix system touch it.

Adam

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 10:16 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 9:37 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 07:12:57PM -0400, Richard Salz wrote:
>> > > SMIT was quite nice
>> >
>> > i have never seen those four words together like that before.
>>
>> Me neither.  SMIT was HORRIBLE if you understood the files in /etc and
>> knew what to do with them.
>
>
> The sysadmin in the CS department had a USENIX button on his wall: "SMIT
> happens." I always found that amusing.
>
> The Motif-version was especially horrible, and crashed all the time. The
> curses-based version was called `smitty`, which I found humorous in a way I
> wouldn't have expected coming from "This page intentionally left blank"
> IBM. In my mind, the worst part of admining RS/6000 boxes of that era was
> the little 3-digit LED code on the front: I guess those machines didn't
> assume that they had either a graphical head or a serial port, so this damn
> teeny tiny display would cycle through a sequence of codes that told you
> what the machine was doing; it came with a book that told you what each
> code meant. Something like "387" meant mounting /usr. Ugh; I just found a
> page on ibm.com describing these "IPL codes."
>
> It might be nice if you had no understanding
>> of how to admin a Unix system and here is this "nice" curses based way
>> to do admin.
>>
>
> The thing was that IBM changed a lot of stuff almost gratuitously.
> Specifics I remember were the print daemon (I ported `lpd` from 4.4BSD for
> that) and anything related to disks and filesystems. In fairness, they had
> logical volumes that could split across disks before most other Unix
> systems that I was working on at the time, but the commands were all custom
> to AIX and, frankly, weird: I remember that one would "vary on" a logical
> volume before one could mount a filesystem from it or something like that.
> I was told at the time that the people who'd built that side of things had
> come from the mainframe world, where that was the nomenclature. Creating
> JFS filesystems required these tools as well; there was new `newfs_jfs` as
> I recall. So I ended up using SMIT for basically anything related to
> filesystems, but for almost nothing else.
>
> To anyone remotely competent, and I don't mean edit sendmail.cf, I mean
>> you can edit inetd.conf, you can edit a crontab file, etc, SMIT was a
>> nightmare that made something that should be vi $FILE, done 20 seconds
>> later, a hellish journey through their menus.  It was AWFUL.
>>
>
> One of the more gratuitous differences I remember from AIX was that
> instead of having e.g. /etc/shadow, they had /etc/password (all spelled
> out), which had semi-structured stanzas for each user. That was just weird.
> Fortunately, we were using NIS and it was smart enough to ignore that for
> NIS users.
>
> Ask me how I know.
>>
>
> I still have nightmares about AIX.
>
>         - Dan C.
>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13 19:18                                     ` Adam Thornton
@ 2020-08-13 19:28                                       ` Warner Losh
  2020-08-13 20:15                                         ` [TUHS] AIX link repost [was " Charles H Sauer
  2020-08-13 20:09                                       ` [TUHS] " Rich
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2020-08-13 19:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Adam Thornton; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3492 bytes --]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 1:19 PM Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> wrote:

> Early AIX is what happens when you give a detailed description of Unix to
> mainframers who've never seen Unix, and then tell them to implement that
> system, and then ship it, without at any point letting someone who's used
> an actual Unix system touch it.
>


Ha.

Is there a good source of detailed technical info on early AIX systems?
Like early 80s versions?

Warner

> Adam
>
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 10:16 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 9:37 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 07:12:57PM -0400, Richard Salz wrote:
>>> > > SMIT was quite nice
>>> >
>>> > i have never seen those four words together like that before.
>>>
>>> Me neither.  SMIT was HORRIBLE if you understood the files in /etc and
>>> knew what to do with them.
>>
>>
>> The sysadmin in the CS department had a USENIX button on his wall: "SMIT
>> happens." I always found that amusing.
>>
>> The Motif-version was especially horrible, and crashed all the time. The
>> curses-based version was called `smitty`, which I found humorous in a way I
>> wouldn't have expected coming from "This page intentionally left blank"
>> IBM. In my mind, the worst part of admining RS/6000 boxes of that era was
>> the little 3-digit LED code on the front: I guess those machines didn't
>> assume that they had either a graphical head or a serial port, so this damn
>> teeny tiny display would cycle through a sequence of codes that told you
>> what the machine was doing; it came with a book that told you what each
>> code meant. Something like "387" meant mounting /usr. Ugh; I just found a
>> page on ibm.com describing these "IPL codes."
>>
>> It might be nice if you had no understanding
>>> of how to admin a Unix system and here is this "nice" curses based way
>>> to do admin.
>>>
>>
>> The thing was that IBM changed a lot of stuff almost gratuitously.
>> Specifics I remember were the print daemon (I ported `lpd` from 4.4BSD for
>> that) and anything related to disks and filesystems. In fairness, they had
>> logical volumes that could split across disks before most other Unix
>> systems that I was working on at the time, but the commands were all custom
>> to AIX and, frankly, weird: I remember that one would "vary on" a logical
>> volume before one could mount a filesystem from it or something like that.
>> I was told at the time that the people who'd built that side of things had
>> come from the mainframe world, where that was the nomenclature. Creating
>> JFS filesystems required these tools as well; there was new `newfs_jfs` as
>> I recall. So I ended up using SMIT for basically anything related to
>> filesystems, but for almost nothing else.
>>
>> To anyone remotely competent, and I don't mean edit sendmail.cf, I mean
>>> you can edit inetd.conf, you can edit a crontab file, etc, SMIT was a
>>> nightmare that made something that should be vi $FILE, done 20 seconds
>>> later, a hellish journey through their menus.  It was AWFUL.
>>>
>>
>> One of the more gratuitous differences I remember from AIX was that
>> instead of having e.g. /etc/shadow, they had /etc/password (all spelled
>> out), which had semi-structured stanzas for each user. That was just weird.
>> Fortunately, we were using NIS and it was smart enough to ignore that for
>> NIS users.
>>
>> Ask me how I know.
>>>
>>
>> I still have nightmares about AIX.
>>
>>         - Dan C.
>>
>>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13 17:19                                     ` Henry Bent
  2020-08-13 17:58                                       ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-08-13 20:04                                       ` John Cowan
  2020-08-13 20:52                                         ` Dan Cross
                                                           ` (3 more replies)
  1 sibling, 4 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: John Cowan @ 2020-08-13 20:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Henry Bent; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 1:19 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:

so this damn teeny tiny display would cycle through a sequence of codes
>> that told you what the machine was doing; it came with a book that told you
>> what each code meant. Something like "387" meant mounting /usr. Ugh; I just
>> found a page on ibm.com describing these "IPL codes."
>>
>
IPL = Initial Program Load = boot(strap), by the way.  It also has the
connotations of "toggle in".

Seated one day at the keyboard
I was weary and ill at ease,
And my fingers rattled noisily
Over the clicking keys

I know not what I was coding
Nor what I had IPLed in
But I struck one chord of logic
Like the sound of a great IF-THEN.
    --Guy Steele (I think)

But this reminded me: Does anyone remember a system of any sort where there
were *two* corresponding sets of alphanumeric error codes, one short and
meaningless like F32 and the other somewhat meaningful like POWER_LOW?  I
made up this example, but I have a feeling I saw or read about such
a system.  I can't pin it down with Dr. Google.

I already know about plenty of systems that have *numbers* and alphabetics,
like <errno.h>, or just alphabetics and a (localizable) text explanation,
like VMS, or just a number and a text explanation, like the BIOS errors.

Such number-only error systems are still very common in things like "smart"
washing machines, where the cost and unreliability of a non-tiny screen
simply isn't acceptable.



John Cowan          http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan        cowan@ccil.org
Wer es in kleinen Dingen mit der Wahrheit nicht ernst nimmt, dem kann
man auch in grossen Dingen nicht vertrauen.  --Albert Einstein on honesty

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* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13 19:18                                     ` Adam Thornton
  2020-08-13 19:28                                       ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-08-13 20:09                                       ` Rich
  2020-08-13 20:16                                         ` Larry McVoy
                                                           ` (2 more replies)
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Rich @ 2020-08-13 20:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

> On Aug 13, 2020, at 12:18, Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Early AIX is what happens when you give a detailed description of Unix to mainframers who've never seen Unix, and then tell them to implement that system, and then ship it, without at any point letting someone who's used an actual Unix system touch it.

My favorite characterization of AIX came from Barry Shein: "It will remind you of Unix."

-r


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] AIX link repost [was Re:  A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13 19:28                                       ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-08-13 20:15                                         ` Charles H Sauer
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Charles H Sauer @ 2020-08-13 20:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 8/13/2020 2:28 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
> Is there a good source of detailed technical info on early AIX systems? 
> Like early 80s versions?

I'm biased, but I still view 
https://notes.technologists.com/notes/2017/03/08/lets-start-at-the-very-beginning-801-romp-rtpc-aix-versions/ 
  and the included citations as the best info readily available on early 
AIX.

That article doesn't discuss SMIT -- SMIT development was in early 
stages when I left AIX/IBM.

Charlie
-- 
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13 20:09                                       ` [TUHS] " Rich
@ 2020-08-13 20:16                                         ` Larry McVoy
  2020-08-13 20:17                                         ` Dr Iain Maoileoin
  2020-08-14  1:04                                         ` Christopher Browne
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-08-13 20:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Rich; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 01:09:49PM -0700, Rich wrote:
> > On Aug 13, 2020, at 12:18, Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Early AIX is what happens when you give a detailed description of Unix to mainframers who've never seen Unix, and then tell them to implement that system, and then ship it, without at any point letting someone who's used an actual Unix system touch it.
> 
> My favorite characterization of AIX came from Barry Shein: "It will remind you of Unix."

Yeah, but in an oh-so-frustrating way.  Sys V was not my cup of tea and AIX 
managed to make it worse.  So happy to not be dealing with that.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13 20:09                                       ` [TUHS] " Rich
  2020-08-13 20:16                                         ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-08-13 20:17                                         ` Dr Iain Maoileoin
  2020-08-14  1:04                                         ` Christopher Browne
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Dr Iain Maoileoin @ 2020-08-13 20:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Rich; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

In the UK, in the 80s?, IBM used to put up HUGE billboards with a slogan like “.. we have added a million lines of code to UNIX”, some smart ar*es around the Uni would grafitti each one with “yes, and every line was wrong”.

AIX had a lot going for it - in some ways, but as the feeling is here it really was not UNIX as we knew it.
I am jaundiced since my car registration is "AIX OK”.


> On 13 Aug 2020, at 21:09, Rich <rdm@cfcl.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Aug 13, 2020, at 12:18, Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Early AIX is what happens when you give a detailed description of Unix to mainframers who've never seen Unix, and then tell them to implement that system, and then ship it, without at any point letting someone who's used an actual Unix system touch it.
> 
> My favorite characterization of AIX came from Barry Shein: "It will remind you of Unix."
> 
> -r
> 


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13 20:04                                       ` John Cowan
@ 2020-08-13 20:52                                         ` Dan Cross
  2020-08-14 17:31                                         ` Paul Winalski
                                                           ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2020-08-13 20:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Cowan; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:04 PM John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 1:19 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> so this damn teeny tiny display would cycle through a sequence of codes
>>> that told you what the machine was doing; it came with a book that told you
>>> what each code meant. Something like "387" meant mounting /usr. Ugh; I just
>>> found a page on ibm.com describing these "IPL codes."
>>>
>>
> IPL = Initial Program Load = boot(strap), by the way.  It also has the
> connotations of "toggle in".
>

Also, "IPL CMS" under VM!

But this reminded me: Does anyone remember a system of any sort where there
> were *two* corresponding sets of alphanumeric error codes, one short and
> meaningless like F32 and the other somewhat meaningful like POWER_LOW?  I
> made up this example, but I have a feeling I saw or read about such
> a system.  I can't pin it down with Dr. Google.
>

It wouldn't surprise me if a DEC system had something similar involving
random integers and more meaningful error strings.  Maybe something like
RSTS/E or RSX?

I already know about plenty of systems that have *numbers* and alphabetics,
> like <errno.h>, or just alphabetics and a (localizable) text explanation,
> like VMS, or just a number and a text explanation, like the BIOS errors.
>

A nifty thing about VMS is that one can type 'help/message' to get
contextual help on the last error message:

$ dir foo
%DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found
$ help/message

 FNF,  file not found

  Facility:     RMS, OpenVMS Record Management Services

  Explanation:  The specified file does not exist.

  User Action:  Check the file specification and verify that the device,
                directory, file name, and file type are all specified
                correctly. If a logical name is specified, verify the
current
                equivalence assigned to the logical name. If the equivalence
                is correct, verify that the correct volume is mounted on
                the specified device and that the file was not inadvertently
                deleted.

$

Such number-only error systems are still very common in things like "smart"
> washing machines, where the cost and unreliability of a non-tiny screen
> simply isn't acceptable.
>

My smoke detector beeps three times quickly when it wants a new battery.
Yay.

        - Dan C.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13 17:14                                   ` Dan Cross
  2020-08-13 17:19                                     ` Henry Bent
  2020-08-13 19:18                                     ` Adam Thornton
@ 2020-08-13 22:24                                     ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-08-13 22:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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On 8/13/20 11:14 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
> The Motif-version was especially horrible, and crashed all the time. The 
> curses-based version was called `smitty`

I think it's funny that you can use 'smitty' /or/ 'smit' to launch SMIT 
on serial consoles.

But 'smit' had a very different behavior in an AIXterm.  'smit' would 
try to launch the Motif version.  Conversely, 'smitty' would always 
launch the curses version.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13 20:09                                       ` [TUHS] " Rich
  2020-08-13 20:16                                         ` Larry McVoy
  2020-08-13 20:17                                         ` Dr Iain Maoileoin
@ 2020-08-14  1:04                                         ` Christopher Browne
  2020-08-14 17:18                                           ` Jim Capp
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Browne @ 2020-08-14  1:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Rich; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Thu., Aug. 13, 2020, 4:11 p.m. Rich, <rdm@cfcl.com> wrote:

> > On Aug 13, 2020, at 12:18, Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Early AIX is what happens when you give a detailed description of Unix
> to mainframers who've never seen Unix, and then tell them to implement that
> system, and then ship it, without at any point letting someone who's used
> an actual Unix system touch it.
>
> My favorite characterization of AIX came from Barry Shein: "It will remind
> you of Unix."


My favorite was from David Megginson, whose observation was that "you don't
run AIX, you chase it"

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-14  1:04                                         ` Christopher Browne
@ 2020-08-14 17:18                                           ` Jim Capp
  2020-08-14 17:37                                             ` Jim Capp
                                                               ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Jim Capp @ 2020-08-14 17:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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I first ran across A/UX at a tradeshow. 

I can’t recall the date, but I remember very clearly approaching an IBM sales rep who told me that they took UNIX and “fixed all the bugs”.  

I shook my head and laughed as I walked away. 

> On Aug 13, 2020, at 9:06 PM, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Thu., Aug. 13, 2020, 4:11 p.m. Rich, <rdm@cfcl.com> wrote:
>> > On Aug 13, 2020, at 12:18, Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> > Early AIX is what happens when you give a detailed description of Unix to mainframers who've never seen Unix, and then tell them to implement that system, and then ship it, without at any point letting someone who's used an actual Unix system touch it.
>> 
>> My favorite characterization of AIX came from Barry Shein: "It will remind you of Unix."
> 
> 
> My favorite was from David Megginson, whose observation was that "you don't run AIX, you chase it"

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13 20:04                                       ` John Cowan
  2020-08-13 20:52                                         ` Dan Cross
@ 2020-08-14 17:31                                         ` Paul Winalski
  2020-08-15  1:24                                           ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-08-18 13:57                                         ` Derek Fawcus
  2020-08-31 21:20                                         ` Dave Horsfall
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Paul Winalski @ 2020-08-14 17:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Cowan; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On 8/13/20, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 1:19 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> IPL = Initial Program Load = boot(strap), by the way.  It also has the
> connotations of "toggle in".

IPL is one of several IBM-isms.  A few others:

main storage = memory.  IBM considered "memory" too anthropomorphic.

DASD = direct access storage device = disk.  This is a hold-over from
the days when, in addition to disks, there were drums and the IBM 2321
data cell drive (aka the noodle-picker).  DECtape would probably be
classified as DASD.

-Paul W.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-14 17:18                                           ` Jim Capp
@ 2020-08-14 17:37                                             ` Jim Capp
  2020-08-14 17:39                                             ` Jon Steinhart
  2020-08-15  1:40                                             ` Gregg Levine
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Jim Capp @ 2020-08-14 17:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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Sorry, I meant AIX, A/UX :-( 


From: "Jim Capp" <jcapp@anteil.com> 
To: "The Eunuchs Hysterical Society" <tuhs@tuhs.org> 
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2020 1:18:48 PM 
Subject: Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic] 


I first ran across A/UX at a tradeshow. 


I can’t recall the date, but I remember very clearly approaching an IBM sales rep who told me that they took UNIX and “fixed all the bugs”. 


I shook my head and laughed as I walked away. 



On Aug 13, 2020, at 9:06 PM, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@gmail.com> wrote: 










On Thu., Aug. 13, 2020, 4:11 p.m. Rich, < rdm@cfcl.com > wrote: 


> On Aug 13, 2020, at 12:18, Adam Thornton < athornton@gmail.com > wrote: 
> 
> Early AIX is what happens when you give a detailed description of Unix to mainframers who've never seen Unix, and then tell them to implement that system, and then ship it, without at any point letting someone who's used an actual Unix system touch it. 

My favorite characterization of AIX came from Barry Shein: "It will remind you of Unix." 


My favorite was from David Megginson, whose observation was that "you don't run AIX, you chase it" 

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-14 17:18                                           ` Jim Capp
  2020-08-14 17:37                                             ` Jim Capp
@ 2020-08-14 17:39                                             ` Jon Steinhart
  2020-08-15  0:33                                               ` Rich
  2020-08-15  1:40                                             ` Gregg Levine
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Jon Steinhart @ 2020-08-14 17:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Jim Capp writes:
> I can’t recall the date, but I remember very clearly approaching an IBM sales
> rep who told me that they took UNIX and “fixed all the bugs”.  
> 
> I shook my head and laughed as I walked away. 

You might laugh, but when I worked at Tektronix on their workstation product,
they had a group that actually did that, or at least as close as possible.  I
remember them agonizing over fixing cpile bugs in eqn.  Was actually really
nice to have a pretty bug-free system available.  But, in the tried and true
bad management style that was Tektronix, nobody every asked whether there was
any customer value proposition.

Jon

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-14 17:39                                             ` Jon Steinhart
@ 2020-08-15  0:33                                               ` Rich
  2020-08-15  1:20                                                 ` Larry McVoy
                                                                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Rich @ 2020-08-15  0:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

> On Aug 14, 2020, at 10:39, Jon Steinhart <jon@fourwinds.com> wrote:
> 
> ...Was actually really
> nice to have a pretty bug-free system available.  But, in the tried and true
> bad management style that was Tektronix, nobody every asked whether there was
> any customer value proposition.

Some years ago, I asked a engineer friend about the ceramic terminal strips
(and accompanying spool of silver solder) that I had seen in Tektronix scopes.
He responded by asking me what a terminal strip was supposed to do.

Erm, make connections and provide physical stability between some wires while
keeping all the connections insulated from each other?  He said "yup", that's
what these strips do.  In particular, they aren't capacitors, resistors, or
inductors to any significant degree...

On a vaguely related note, I found it amusing that there was a well known hack
for Cray's (or perhaps 6600's) which were misbehaving: put a Tektronix scope
probe on a test point that generally had one there during final system checkout.
The load (extremely mnimal by design) was just enough to stabilize the system.

-r


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-15  0:33                                               ` Rich
@ 2020-08-15  1:20                                                 ` Larry McVoy
  2020-08-15  2:08                                                   ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-08-15 12:05                                                   ` Thomas Paulsen
  2020-08-15  1:33                                                 ` Jon Steinhart
  2020-08-15  2:02                                                 ` Dave Horsfall
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-08-15  1:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Rich; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 05:33:09PM -0700, Rich wrote:
> On a vaguely related note, I found it amusing that there was a well known hack
> for Cray's (or perhaps 6600's) which were misbehaving: put a Tektronix scope
> probe on a test point that generally had one there during final system checkout.
> The load (extremely mnimal by design) was just enough to stabilize the system.

I'm sure everyone here knows this, but the Cray 1 (I think, the one
that had what looked like a circular bench seat around the bottom) was
designed like that because the clock was at the center and the clock
signal went to all the boards and was right because all the clock lines
to the boards were the same length.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-14 17:31                                         ` Paul Winalski
@ 2020-08-15  1:24                                           ` Dave Horsfall
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2020-08-15  1:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Fri, 14 Aug 2020, Paul Winalski wrote:

> IPL is one of several IBM-isms.  A few others:
>
> main storage = memory.  IBM considered "memory" too anthropomorphic.
>
> DASD = direct access storage device = disk.  This is a hold-over from
> the days when, in addition to disks, there were drums and the IBM 2321
> data cell drive (aka the noodle-picker).  DECtape would probably be
> classified as DASD.

Another one for you: LCS: Large Core Store (sort of extended memory).

Ah, the noodle-picker...  Also known as the Chicken Plucker, when it
worked it worked OK, but when it didn't...

There was also this rotating drum, where instead of the heads moving, the
drum slid sideways, and the (male) operators used to show it to females...

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-15  0:33                                               ` Rich
  2020-08-15  1:20                                                 ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-08-15  1:33                                                 ` Jon Steinhart
  2020-08-15  2:02                                                 ` Dave Horsfall
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Jon Steinhart @ 2020-08-15  1:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Rich writes:
> > On Aug 14, 2020, at 10:39, Jon Steinhart <jon@fourwinds.com> wrote:
> > 
> > ...Was actually really
> > nice to have a pretty bug-free system available.  But, in the tried and true
> > bad management style that was Tektronix, nobody every asked whether there was
> > any customer value proposition.
>
> Some years ago, I asked a engineer friend about the ceramic terminal strips
> (and accompanying spool of silver solder) that I had seen in Tektronix scopes.
> He responded by asking me what a terminal strip was supposed to do.
>
> Erm, make connections and provide physical stability between some wires while
> keeping all the connections insulated from each other?  He said "yup", that's
> what these strips do.  In particular, they aren't capacitors, resistors, or
> inductors to any significant degree...
>
> On a vaguely related note, I found it amusing that there was a well known hack
> for Cray's (or perhaps 6600's) which were misbehaving: put a Tektronix scope
> probe on a test point that generally had one there during final system checkout.
> The load (extremely mnimal by design) was just enough to stabilize the system.
>
> -r

Well, this is kind of off topic, but that wasn't my experience at Tek.  There was
an internal course called AFTR (amplifier frequency and transient response) which
was basically a guide to black magic design, then things that you had to know if
as we said, you needed to design amplifiers that were flat from DC to daylight.
This is where one learned about things like t-coils which compensated for bonding
wire impedance in ICs, hook (dC/dV of circuit certain circuit board dialectrics),
and so on.  Plus, we had a policy of making things bulletproof.  Relating it back
to workstations, it was a problem.  We were unable to convince management (well,
there really wasn't any management at Tek) that while customers expected a mil-spec
scope to bounce and keep on working when dropped off of the back of a truck, the
folks who bought workstations expected them to break when dropped.  That's why we
couldn't build an empty box of air for less than a thousand dollars.

Jon

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-14 17:18                                           ` Jim Capp
  2020-08-14 17:37                                             ` Jim Capp
  2020-08-14 17:39                                             ` Jon Steinhart
@ 2020-08-15  1:40                                             ` Gregg Levine
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Gregg Levine @ 2020-08-15  1:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jim Capp; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Hello!
And you're going to react similarly when I mention that I first met
AIX at an event concerning UNIX in general, in fact UNIXEXPO, and
there it was the crowd of RT/PC designs that looked like strangely
dressed PC/AT ones, and scared the stuffing out of the salesperson
when I simply logged into each working station by using the telnet
command and asking her the name of each.

Next time they looked like the way they looked much the same as the
final style, and that's what the salesmen said. that.  I also laughed
at it.

I found the SUN booth more interesting. But Larry knows why.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 1:20 PM Jim Capp <jcapp@anteil.com> wrote:
>
> I first ran across A/UX at a tradeshow.
>
> I can’t recall the date, but I remember very clearly approaching an IBM sales rep who told me that they took UNIX and “fixed all the bugs”.
>
> I shook my head and laughed as I walked away.
>
> On Aug 13, 2020, at 9:06 PM, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 
>
>
> On Thu., Aug. 13, 2020, 4:11 p.m. Rich, <rdm@cfcl.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Aug 13, 2020, at 12:18, Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Early AIX is what happens when you give a detailed description of Unix to mainframers who've never seen Unix, and then tell them to implement that system, and then ship it, without at any point letting someone who's used an actual Unix system touch it.
>>
>> My favorite characterization of AIX came from Barry Shein: "It will remind you of Unix."
>
>
> My favorite was from David Megginson, whose observation was that "you don't run AIX, you chase it"

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-15  0:33                                               ` Rich
  2020-08-15  1:20                                                 ` Larry McVoy
  2020-08-15  1:33                                                 ` Jon Steinhart
@ 2020-08-15  2:02                                                 ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-08-15  2:45                                                   ` Andrew Hume
  2020-08-15  3:29                                                   ` Larry McVoy
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2020-08-15  2:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Fri, 14 Aug 2020, Rich wrote:

> On a vaguely related note, I found it amusing that there was a well 
> known hack for Cray's (or perhaps 6600's) which were misbehaving: put a 
> Tektronix scope probe on a test point that generally had one there 
> during final system checkout. The load (extremely mnimal by design) was 
> just enough to stabilize the system.

There was also the story about the major difference between a Cyber 72 and 
a Cyber 73 was just a timing capacitor...  Very expensive capacitor :-)

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-15  1:20                                                 ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-08-15  2:08                                                   ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-08-15  2:47                                                     ` Warner Losh
  2020-08-15 17:44                                                     ` Paul Winalski
  2020-08-15 12:05                                                   ` Thomas Paulsen
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2020-08-15  2:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Fri, 14 Aug 2020, Larry McVoy wrote:

> I'm sure everyone here knows this, but the Cray 1 (I think, the one that 
> had what looked like a circular bench seat around the bottom) was 
> designed like that because the clock was at the center and the clock 
> signal went to all the boards and was right because all the clock lines 
> to the boards were the same length.

Yep, timing was everything in those days (and I'm still amazed at the 
people who believe that electricity moves at the speed of light).

Wasn't it Grace Hopper who used to demonstrate a nanosecond by holding up
a foot of wire?

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-15  2:02                                                 ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2020-08-15  2:45                                                   ` Andrew Hume
  2020-08-15 16:55                                                     ` William Cheswick
  2020-08-15  3:29                                                   ` Larry McVoy
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Hume @ 2020-08-15  2:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

not on the cyber 72 we shared, dave.
it was, in fact, a length of wire.
the 72 had one length, and the 76 had a shorter length.
(i guess you could call that a sort-of timing capacitor?)

i watched a cyber technician change the wires for the
purposes of doing a verification test.

> On Aug 14, 2020, at 7:02 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020, Rich wrote:
> 
>> On a vaguely related note, I found it amusing that there was a well known hack for Cray's (or perhaps 6600's) which were misbehaving: put a Tektronix scope probe on a test point that generally had one there during final system checkout. The load (extremely mnimal by design) was just enough to stabilize the system.
> 
> There was also the story about the major difference between a Cyber 72 and a Cyber 73 was just a timing capacitor...  Very expensive capacitor :-)
> 
> -- Dave


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-15  2:08                                                   ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2020-08-15  2:47                                                     ` Warner Losh
  2020-08-15 17:44                                                     ` Paul Winalski
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2020-08-15  2:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1020 bytes --]

On Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 8:09 PM Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020, Larry McVoy wrote:
>
> > I'm sure everyone here knows this, but the Cray 1 (I think, the one that
> > had what looked like a circular bench seat around the bottom) was
> > designed like that because the clock was at the center and the clock
> > signal went to all the boards and was right because all the clock lines
> > to the boards were the same length.
>
> Yep, timing was everything in those days (and I'm still amazed at the
> people who believe that electricity moves at the speed of light).
>
> Wasn't it Grace Hopper who used to demonstrate a nanosecond by holding up
> a foot of wire?
>

Yes. A nanosecond is just over a foot in copper...  I used to do high
precision timing and we used to make cables specific lengths to bring the
on time point of different parts of the signal distribution system into
alignment... you could also see how bands or kinks in the cables moved the
on time point...

Warner

-- Dave
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-15  2:02                                                 ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-08-15  2:45                                                   ` Andrew Hume
@ 2020-08-15  3:29                                                   ` Larry McVoy
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-08-15  3:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:02:51PM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020, Rich wrote:
> 
> >On a vaguely related note, I found it amusing that there was a well known
> >hack for Cray's (or perhaps 6600's) which were misbehaving: put a
> >Tektronix scope probe on a test point that generally had one there during
> >final system checkout. The load (extremely mnimal by design) was just
> >enough to stabilize the system.
> 
> There was also the story about the major difference between a Cyber 72 and a
> Cyber 73 was just a timing capacitor...  Very expensive capacitor :-)

I've been there when Neil Lincoln toggled the boot strap.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA10

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-15  1:20                                                 ` Larry McVoy
  2020-08-15  2:08                                                   ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2020-08-15 12:05                                                   ` Thomas Paulsen
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Thomas Paulsen @ 2020-08-15 12:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: tuhs

>I'm sure everyone here knows this, but the Cray 1 (I think, the one
that had what looked like a circular bench seat around the bottom) was
designed like that because the clock was at the center and the clock
signal went to all the boards and was right because all the clock lines
to the boards were the same length.<

you mean that? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Cray-1-deutsches-museum.jpg


<br>_________________________________________________________________<br><strong>Gesendet mit Firemail.de - Freemail</strong>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-15  2:45                                                   ` Andrew Hume
@ 2020-08-15 16:55                                                     ` William Cheswick
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: William Cheswick @ 2020-08-15 16:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

The wire lengths were important in CDC CPUs. I once saw an expert from CDC poking through the rats nest of wires on the backplane, yanking the wires around with his flashlight, and pulled one out thinking it was the wrong length.  It was.

Message by ches. Tappos by iPad.


> On Aug 14, 2020, at 11:08 PM, Andrew Hume <andrew@humeweb.com> wrote:
> 
> not on the cyber 72 we shared, dave.
> it was, in fact, a length of wire.
> the 72 had one length, and the 76 had a shorter length.
> (i guess you could call that a sort-of timing capacitor?)
> 
> i watched a cyber technician change the wires for the
> purposes of doing a verification test.
> 
>> On Aug 14, 2020, at 7:02 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020, Rich wrote:
>>> 
>>> On a vaguely related note, I found it amusing that there was a well known hack for Cray's (or perhaps 6600's) which were misbehaving: put a Tektronix scope probe on a test point that generally had one there during final system checkout. The load (extremely mnimal by design) was just enough to stabilize the system.
>> 
>> There was also the story about the major difference between a Cyber 72 and a Cyber 73 was just a timing capacitor...  Very expensive capacitor :-)
>> 
>> -- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-15  2:08                                                   ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-08-15  2:47                                                     ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-08-15 17:44                                                     ` Paul Winalski
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Paul Winalski @ 2020-08-15 17:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On 8/14/20, Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote:
>
> Wasn't it Grace Hopper who used to demonstrate a nanosecond by holding up
> a foot of wire?

Yes.  She gave a talk back in 1982 at DEC's software engineering
facility.  She used the foot-long wire to illustrate a nanosecond and
a big coil of wire for a microsecond.  After the talk she handed out
nanoseconds as souvenirs.  I still have mine.  Her talk was on the
future of computing, and the point she was making with the nanosecond
was that eventually there's a limit to Moore's Law., and any further
computational speedups would require parallelism.  She drew an analogy
to the problem of a 19th century carter having to haul a load too
heavy for one horse.  The solution isn't to breed bigger horses--it's
to hook up two of them.  And here we are today, with multi-core
processors.

-Paul W.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13 20:04                                       ` John Cowan
  2020-08-13 20:52                                         ` Dan Cross
  2020-08-14 17:31                                         ` Paul Winalski
@ 2020-08-18 13:57                                         ` Derek Fawcus
  2020-08-18 14:11                                           ` John Cowan
  2020-08-31 21:20                                         ` Dave Horsfall
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Derek Fawcus @ 2020-08-18 13:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 04:04:22PM -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> But this reminded me: Does anyone remember a system of any sort where there
> were *two* corresponding sets of alphanumeric error codes, one short and
> meaningless like F32 and the other somewhat meaningful like POWER_LOW?  I
> made up this example, but I have a feeling I saw or read about such
> a system.  I can't pin it down with Dr. Google.

Something early from Digital Research?

Not quite what you describe, but a late DR OS had the following scheme.

  http://bitsavers.org/pdf/digitalResearch/flexos/1073-2003_FlexOS_Users_Guide_V1.3_Nov86.pdf

page 4, and 128 onwards:

    The help level can have a value between 1 and 4. Your computer manufacturer sets a default help level which you can override with DEFINE.
    
    1 Displays the FlexOS function, the error source module, and the return code.
    2 Identifies the command and type of error in one sentence.
      An example of a level 2 error message is "COPY: Write error."
    3 Expands on the level 2 message and includes more specific information.
      An example of a level 3 message is "COPY: An error occurred writing report.txt on a:".
    4 Expands on the level 3 message and often suggests a possible solution to the error.
      An example of a level 4 message is "COPY: An error occurred writing report.txt on a: The disk a: is full. You can erase unnecessary files to free up space."
    
Where for scheme 1 it gave something like:

    Error Code = 80137712
    System Source Module              = Pipe System
    Function Returning the Error      = write_data
    Error Argument (long in HEX)      = 123456
    Error Argument (character string) = string

With only one of the last two lines printed, depending upon the function in question.

DF

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-18 13:57                                         ` Derek Fawcus
@ 2020-08-18 14:11                                           ` John Cowan
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: John Cowan @ 2020-08-18 14:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Derek Fawcus; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2377 bytes --]

No, that definitely wasn't it: this is of the "numeric code plus text
string" type, although it's interesting because it has multiple-length text
strings to trade off verbosity/helpfulness.  It kind of reminds me of what
you get in ADVENT when you move to a place you have been before.  You get
only a brief description, but if you type DESCRIBE you get the full monty.
That must have saved a lot of LA34/36 paper.  :-)


On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 10:07 AM Derek Fawcus <
dfawcus+lists-tuhs@employees.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 04:04:22PM -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> > But this reminded me: Does anyone remember a system of any sort where
> there
> > were *two* corresponding sets of alphanumeric error codes, one short and
> > meaningless like F32 and the other somewhat meaningful like POWER_LOW?  I
> > made up this example, but I have a feeling I saw or read about such
> > a system.  I can't pin it down with Dr. Google.
>
> Something early from Digital Research?
>
> Not quite what you describe, but a late DR OS had the following scheme.
>
>
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/digitalResearch/flexos/1073-2003_FlexOS_Users_Guide_V1.3_Nov86.pdf
>
> page 4, and 128 onwards:
>
>     The help level can have a value between 1 and 4. Your computer
> manufacturer sets a default help level which you can override with DEFINE.
>
>     1 Displays the FlexOS function, the error source module, and the
> return code.
>     2 Identifies the command and type of error in one sentence.
>       An example of a level 2 error message is "COPY: Write error."
>     3 Expands on the level 2 message and includes more specific
> information.
>       An example of a level 3 message is "COPY: An error occurred writing
> report.txt on a:".
>     4 Expands on the level 3 message and often suggests a possible
> solution to the error.
>       An example of a level 4 message is "COPY: An error occurred writing
> report.txt on a: The disk a: is full. You can erase unnecessary files to
> free up space."
>
> Where for scheme 1 it gave something like:
>
>     Error Code = 80137712
>     System Source Module              = Pipe System
>     Function Returning the Error      = write_data
>     Error Argument (long in HEX)      = 123456
>     Error Argument (character string) = string
>
> With only one of the last two lines printed, depending upon the function
> in question.
>
> DF
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3039 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13  3:15                                       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-08-13  4:02                                         ` Larry Cashdollar via TUHS
@ 2020-08-31 21:12                                         ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-09-03 14:10                                           ` Michael Parson
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2020-08-31 21:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:

>> The SMIT I had did*not*  show you what files it was editing
>
> My recollection is that smit(ty) did /not/ show you the commands that 
> would be run /by/ /default/.
>
> That being said, there was a (P)F key you could press prior to 
> executing, one of the many (P)F keys smit(ty) used, that would show you 
> the command and all of it's arguments which would be run.

It's possible that the system in question was set up by my predecessor; my 
basic job was to maintain a rather large application on it and the other 
boxen (financial/sales/factory/etc, all in one); this was many years ago.

Never heard of "smitty".

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-13 20:04                                       ` John Cowan
                                                           ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2020-08-18 13:57                                         ` Derek Fawcus
@ 2020-08-31 21:20                                         ` Dave Horsfall
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2020-08-31 21:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Thu, 13 Aug 2020, John Cowan wrote:

> Such number-only error systems are still very common in things like 
> "smart" washing machines, where the cost and unreliability of a non-tiny 
> screen simply isn't acceptable.

Yeah; I have one.  The most common code was "E17" which meant excessive 
vibration during the spin cycle i.e. load not arranged properly; I could 
tell anyway by the CLONK CLONK CLONK sound...

-- Dave, who does his own laundry

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic]
  2020-08-31 21:12                                         ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2020-09-03 14:10                                           ` Michael Parson
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Michael Parson @ 2020-09-03 14:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


On 2020-08-31 16:12, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Aug 2020, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> 
>>> The SMIT I had did*not*  show you what files it was editing
>> 
>> My recollection is that smit(ty) did /not/ show you the commands that 
>> would be run /by/ /default/.
>> 
>> That being said, there was a (P)F key you could press prior to 
>> executing, one of the many (P)F keys smit(ty) used, that would show 
>> you the command and all of it's arguments which would be run.
> 
> It's possible that the system in question was set up by my
> predecessor; my basic job was to maintain a rather large application
> on it and the other boxen (financial/sales/factory/etc, all in one);
> this was many years ago.
> 
> Never heard of "smitty".

'smit' is the X11 GUI, 'smitty' is the text TUI (play on 'smit' + 
'tty').

IIRC, if you had $DISPLAY set, 'smit' would present the GUI version, if
not, it would automagically call 'smitty' for you.

-- 
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
KF5LGQ

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2020-09-03 14:31 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 106+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-07-17 18:08 [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Norman Wilson
2020-07-17 18:14 ` John Cowan
2020-07-17 18:19 ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-17 19:53 ` [TUHS] Linux is on-topic Warren Toomey
2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-17 20:00     ` Adam Thornton
2020-07-17 20:04       ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-17 20:03     ` Dan Cross
2020-07-17 23:31       ` A. P. Garcia
2020-07-19 10:26       ` emanuel stiebler
2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
2020-07-17 20:12       ` Warner Losh
2020-07-17 20:19       ` Clem Cole
2020-07-19  9:54       ` Sergio Pedraja
2020-07-17 20:08     ` Michael Kjörling
2020-07-17 20:55       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-17 21:28         ` Michael Kjörling
2020-07-18 20:22           ` Ed Carp
2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
2020-07-19  2:31               ` Gregg Levine
2020-07-19  3:46               ` Wesley Parish
2020-07-19  4:42                 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-19 18:01                   ` Michael Parson
2020-07-20  8:47                     ` [TUHS] A/UX [was Linux is on-topic] arnold
2020-07-20  9:46                       ` Arno Griffioen
2020-07-20 16:35                         ` Arthur Krewat
2020-07-20 17:44                           ` Arno Griffioen
2020-07-20 19:07                         ` Rich Morin
2020-07-20 19:45                           ` Al Kossow
2020-07-20 19:49                             ` Al Kossow
2020-07-24  0:01                               ` Chris Hanson
2020-07-20 20:20                         ` Ed Carp
2020-07-20 21:02                           ` John Cowan
2020-07-20 22:27                             ` Ed Carp
2020-07-24  0:04                             ` Chris Hanson
2020-07-31 23:02                             ` Dave Horsfall
2020-07-31 23:12                               ` Richard Salz
2020-08-01  1:36                                 ` Larry McVoy
2020-08-01 16:08                                   ` Nemo Nusquam
2020-08-01 17:01                                     ` Arthur Krewat
2020-08-13  0:00                                   ` Dave Horsfall
2020-08-13  1:47                                     ` Larry McVoy
2020-08-13  3:15                                       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-08-13  4:02                                         ` Larry Cashdollar via TUHS
2020-08-31 21:12                                         ` Dave Horsfall
2020-09-03 14:10                                           ` Michael Parson
2020-08-13  1:53                                     ` Nemo Nusquam
2020-08-13 17:14                                   ` Dan Cross
2020-08-13 17:19                                     ` Henry Bent
2020-08-13 17:58                                       ` Warner Losh
2020-08-13 20:04                                       ` John Cowan
2020-08-13 20:52                                         ` Dan Cross
2020-08-14 17:31                                         ` Paul Winalski
2020-08-15  1:24                                           ` Dave Horsfall
2020-08-18 13:57                                         ` Derek Fawcus
2020-08-18 14:11                                           ` John Cowan
2020-08-31 21:20                                         ` Dave Horsfall
2020-08-13 19:18                                     ` Adam Thornton
2020-08-13 19:28                                       ` Warner Losh
2020-08-13 20:15                                         ` [TUHS] AIX link repost [was " Charles H Sauer
2020-08-13 20:09                                       ` [TUHS] " Rich
2020-08-13 20:16                                         ` Larry McVoy
2020-08-13 20:17                                         ` Dr Iain Maoileoin
2020-08-14  1:04                                         ` Christopher Browne
2020-08-14 17:18                                           ` Jim Capp
2020-08-14 17:37                                             ` Jim Capp
2020-08-14 17:39                                             ` Jon Steinhart
2020-08-15  0:33                                               ` Rich
2020-08-15  1:20                                                 ` Larry McVoy
2020-08-15  2:08                                                   ` Dave Horsfall
2020-08-15  2:47                                                     ` Warner Losh
2020-08-15 17:44                                                     ` Paul Winalski
2020-08-15 12:05                                                   ` Thomas Paulsen
2020-08-15  1:33                                                 ` Jon Steinhart
2020-08-15  2:02                                                 ` Dave Horsfall
2020-08-15  2:45                                                   ` Andrew Hume
2020-08-15 16:55                                                     ` William Cheswick
2020-08-15  3:29                                                   ` Larry McVoy
2020-08-15  1:40                                             ` Gregg Levine
2020-08-13 22:24                                     ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-24  0:02                           ` Chris Hanson
2020-07-20  9:48                       ` Andrew Warkentin
2020-07-20 11:49                         ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-20 14:36                           ` Clem Cole
2020-07-20 17:24                           ` John Cowan
2020-07-20 22:11                           ` Ed Carp
2020-07-21  1:04                             ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-22  3:13                               ` tytso
2020-07-22  5:40                                 ` Bakul Shah
2020-07-22 14:16                                   ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-20 12:32                       ` Derrik Walker v2.0
2020-07-20 12:54                         ` Andrew Warkentin
2020-07-21  1:50                           ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-21  2:30                             ` Gregg Levine
2020-07-22  3:44                         ` Jason
2020-07-22 12:23                           ` Derrik Walker v2.0
2020-07-20 14:28                       ` Clem Cole
2020-07-22  3:50                         ` Jason
2020-07-22  4:26                           ` Henry Bent
2020-07-24  0:10                             ` Chris Hanson
2020-07-20  0:24               ` [TUHS] Linux is on-topic Ed Carp
2020-07-22  3:41             ` Jason
2020-07-22 16:15               ` Michael Parson
2020-07-18  3:34     ` Tomasz Rola
2020-07-18 16:45     ` Christopher Browne
2020-07-19  7:32       ` Lars Brinkhoff

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