[pups] Bob's emulator and ultrix

[pups] Bob's emulator and ultrix

[Rico Pajarola]

Hi Bill

you may try a current version of the simh emulator (simh 3.5.-2) which 
is available from simh.trailing-edge.com. I had no problems with Ultrix 
3.1, Unix V6/V7 etc.. I couldn't find xenix for pdpd-11 (did I miss that 
in the archives?). There is Venix, but it's for the PRO-350/380, which 
is not a "normal" PDP-11.

As for the OS Tim Berners-Lee used for his first Browser, I believe that 
it was made on a Norsk Data Technostation. There is very few information 
available on these machines, and I don't think there is an emulator for 
them. There are only a few webpages mentioning it at all: see 
http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~toresbe/nd/history.html for example (it has a 
picture of the machine, note the funny terminal with the two LCD's in 
addition to the monitor). I recently donated my Technostation to a 
computer museum...

regards
--rp

> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:32:27 -0400
> From: "Bill Cunningham" <billcu1 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Bob's emulator and ultrix
> To: <wkt at tuhs.org>
> 
> I can't get the sim 2.3d to boot ultrix 3.1 or xenix or anyother boot tapes
> in the uhs's archive. I have compiled the pdp11 emulator with gcc-3.4.6. I
> am also interested in the OS Tim Berners-Lee used to write his first
> browser. VMS on a VAX machine I have read. Is there anything like this in
> the archive? A VAX emulator and VMS OS?
> 
> Bill

[pups] Bob's emulator and ultrix

[Tim Bradshaw]

On Wed, April 19, 2006 09:44, Rico Pajarola wrote:

>
> As for the OS Tim Berners-Lee used for his first Browser, I believe that
> it was made on a Norsk Data Technostation. There is very few information
> available on these machines, and I don't think there is an emulator for
> them. There are only a few webpages mentioning it at all: see
> http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~toresbe/nd/history.html for example (it has a
> picture of the machine, note the funny terminal with the two LCD's in
> addition to the monitor). I recently donated my Technostation to a
> computer museum...

I understood it was NeXTStep
(http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/WorldWideWeb.html would seem to back
that up).  So that would be running on some kind of NeXT box I should
think.  Today's descendent is MacOS X, which still has a lot of things
named NS* in it.

--tim

[pups] Bob's emulator and ultrix

[Toby Thain]

On 19-Apr-06, at 5:10 AM, Tim Bradshaw wrote:

> On Wed, April 19, 2006 09:44, Rico Pajarola wrote:
>
>>
>> As for the OS Tim Berners-Lee used for his first Browser, I  
>> believe that
>> it was made on a Norsk Data Technostation. ...

Now I've heard everything :)

>
> I understood it was NeXTStep
> (http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/WorldWideWeb.html would seem  
> to back
> that up).  So that would be running on some kind of NeXT box

Yes, as Milo points out, an M68K model, for which afaik no emulator  
exists. The original hardware can still be bought on ebay, or from  
http://www.blackholeinc.com/ (if they are still responsive).

However you should be able to run NEXTSTEP/Intel (which means a late  
version like 3.3) on emulated hardware (QEMU, Bochs, etc), which  
coincidentally is what I've been trying to do this week.

Several versions of TBL's browser (M68K and Intel binaries for  
NEXTSTEP 3.3) can be found at http://browsers.evolt.org/?worldwideweb/ 
NeXT

--Toby

> ...  Today's descendent is MacOS X, which still has a lot of things
> named NS* in it.
>
> --tim
>
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups

[pups] Bob's emulator and ultrix

[Toby Thain]

On 19-Apr-06, at 5:10 AM, Tim Bradshaw wrote:

> On Wed, April 19, 2006 09:44, Rico Pajarola wrote:
>
>>
>> As for the OS Tim Berners-Lee used for his first Browser, I  
>> believe that
>> it was made on a Norsk Data Technostation. There is very few  
>> information
>> available on these machines, and I don't think there is an  
>> emulator for
>> them. There are only a few webpages mentioning it at all: see
>> http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~toresbe/nd/history.html for example (it has a
>> picture of the machine, note the funny terminal with the two LCD's in
>> addition to the monitor). I recently donated my Technostation to a
>> computer museum...
>
> I understood it was NeXTStep
> (http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/WorldWideWeb.html would seem  
> to back
> that up).

Further to last post, see this note by TBL: http:// 
www.mirrorservice.org/sites/browsers.evolt.org/browsers/worldwideweb/ 
NeXT/WorldWideWeb.html
(includes link to screenshot).

--Toby

> ...
>
> --tim
>
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups

[pups] Bob's emulator and ultrix

[Rico Pajarola]

Toby Thain wrote:
>> I understood it was NeXTStep
>> (http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/WorldWideWeb.html would seem  to 
>> back
>> that up).
> 
> 
> Further to last post, see this note by TBL: http:// 
> www.mirrorservice.org/sites/browsers.evolt.org/browsers/worldwideweb/ 
> NeXT/WorldWideWeb.html
> (includes link to screenshot).
I know that, but this program was based on another program called 
"Enquire", which was written by Berners-Lee on a Norsk Data machine 
(supposedly a Technostation running Sintran III), see 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsk_Data, 
http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/Longer.html

regards
--rp

[pups] Bob's emulator and ultrix

[Tore S Bekkedal]

On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 10:44 +0200, Rico Pajarola wrote:
> As for the OS Tim Berners-Lee used for his first Browser, I believe that 
> it was made on a Norsk Data Technostation. 
I doubt that, for the reasons I posted to the list.
> There is very few information 
> available on these machines, and I don't think there is an emulator for 
> them. 
I'm working on one, little by little. But I have pretty much zero docs
on the ND-500(0) side of the things, as well as the interface between
the ND-100 and ND-500(0) processors. 
> There are only a few webpages mentioning it at all: see 
> http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~toresbe/nd/history.html for example (it has a 
> picture of the machine, note the funny terminal with the two LCD's in 
> addition to the monitor).
I believe they were plasma screens, and emulated a pair of standard
TDV-22xx serial terminals (the OS did AFAIK not support the huge
framebuffer natively).
The writer of the original version in Norwegian has all parts of the
Technostation apart from the giant desk.
>  I recently donated my Technostation to a 
> computer museum...
Which museum? Did you include the funny desk? Was it running when you
gave it up? What software did it run?

I personally have a ND-5700 computer, and would of course *kill* for
ENQUIRE. :)

http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/technostation.jpeg offers a more detailed
view of the console. The article is in Norwegian, about the machine
winning a design award.

-toresbe :)

[pups] Bob's emulator and ultrix

[Rico Pajarola]

Tore S Bekkedal wrote:
>> As for the OS Tim Berners-Lee used for his first Browser, I believe that 
>> it was made on a Norsk Data Technostation. 
> I doubt that, for the reasons I posted to the list.
maybe the word browser is not really correct, it's ENQUIRE that I meant, 
which is the great-grandfather of that browser.

 > I believe they were plasma screens, and emulated a pair of standard
 > TDV-22xx serial terminals (the OS did AFAIK not support the huge
 > framebuffer natively).
that's what I understood, the monitor was not really "part" of the 
computer, more like an external device controlled by it.

> Which museum? Did you include the funny desk? Was it running when you
> gave it up? What software did it run?
http://www.bolo.ch/

And yes, it included the funny desk (altough the wooden "arms" were 
broken off). It seemed complete (SCSI, CPU, 16MB RAM, 3-board Ethernet 
etc. was all there, even a spare powersupply, only the front plate was 
apparently missing), but it was halfways disassembled, and lacking any 
software or other knowledge and time to investigate, I never dared to 
turn it on.

It's a shame to let such a machine rot in storage, the museum is a much 
better place for that machine, and it's not as if it's "gone" now, I can 
visit it even more often than when I had it in storage ;)

> I personally have a ND-5700 computer, and would of course *kill* for
> ENQUIRE. :)
so would I...

> http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/technostation.jpeg offers a more detailed
> view of the console. The article is in Norwegian, about the machine
> winning a design award.
yeah, that's it, although my machine looked smaller (half as wide)

regards
--rp

[pups] Bob's emulator and ultrix

[Milo Velimirovic]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1274 bytes --]


On Apr 18, 2006, at 9:00 PM, pups-request at minnie.tuhs.org wrote:

> ----- Forwarded message from Bill Cunningham <billcu1 at verizon.net>  
> -----
>
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:32:27 -0400
> From: "Bill Cunningham" <billcu1 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Bob's emulator and ultrix
> To: <wkt at tuhs.org>
>
> I can't get the sim 2.3d to boot ultrix 3.1 or xenix or anyother  
> boot tapes
> in the uhs's archive. I have compiled the pdp11 emulator with  
> gcc-3.4.6. I
> am also interested in the OS Tim Berners-Lee used to write his first
> browser. VMS on a VAX machine I have read.

Doubtful. Everything I have read leads me to believe that Tim Berners- 
Lee wrote the first web browser on using a NeXT cube running an early  
version (2.x or earlier) of the NEXTSTEP operating system.

> Is there anything like this in
> the archive? A VAX emulator and VMS OS?
>
> Bill
> ----- End forwarded message -----

--
Milo Velimirović
University of Wisconsin - La Crosse
La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA
43 48 48 N 91 13 53 W
--
There's a reason Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson have been awarded  
the U.S. National Medal of Technology (1998) and are fellows of the  
Computer History Museum Online. Dave Cutler hasn't and isn't.
"You are not expected to understand this."

[pups] Bob's emulator and ultrix

[Tore S Bekkedal]

On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 07:51 -0500, Milo Velimirovic wrote:
> Doubtful. Everything I have read leads me to believe that Tim Berners- 
> Lee wrote the first web browser on using a NeXT cube running an early  
> version (2.x or earlier) of the NEXTSTEP operating system.
Sorry, quick trigger finger, wrote the previous reply before checking
the rest of the thread and accidentally sending it..

Tim Berners-Lee wrote what could be thought of as an early prototype of
the Web on a Norsk Data SINTRAN-III/VSX minicomputer. Though it was
probably not a Technostation (In a talk at the CHM, Tim Berners-Lee
mentions giving the program (called ENQUIRE) to someone on an 8" floppy,
which would place it far away in time from the Technostation (which was
in the late eighties and a special-purpose CAD workstation) and closer
to the (binary-compatible) 32-bit ND-5x0 systems, which were quite
popular at CERN. Also, IIRC the manual discusses the use of a TDV
terminal, which were the (awesome!) CRT terminals that came with the
system) 

However, the HTTP-style Web was indeed written on a NeXT cube.

-toresbe :)

[TUHS] Bob's emulator and ultrix

[Warren Toomey]

     [ Please reply to Bill if you can, I don't know if he's on the list ]

----- Forwarded message from Bill Cunningham <billcu1 at verizon.net> -----

Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:32:27 -0400
From: "Bill Cunningham" <billcu1@verizon.net>
Subject: Bob's emulator and ultrix
To: <wkt at tuhs.org>

I can't get the sim 2.3d to boot ultrix 3.1 or xenix or anyother boot tapes
in the uhs's archive. I have compiled the pdp11 emulator with gcc-3.4.6. I
am also interested in the OS Tim Berners-Lee used to write his first
browser. VMS on a VAX machine I have read. Is there anything like this in
the archive? A VAX emulator and VMS OS?

Bill
----- End forwarded message -----

[TUHS] Bob's emulator and ultrix

[Charlie ROOT]

On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, Warren Toomey wrote:

>      [ Please reply to Bill if you can, I don't know if he's on the list ]
> 
> ----- Forwarded message from Bill Cunningham <billcu1 at verizon.net> -----
> 
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:32:27 -0400
> From: "Bill Cunningham" <billcu1 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Bob's emulator and ultrix
> To: <wkt at tuhs.org>
> 
> I can't get the sim 2.3d to boot ultrix 3.1 or xenix or anyother boot tapes
> in the uhs's archive. I have compiled the pdp11 emulator with gcc-3.4.6. I
> am also interested in the OS Tim Berners-Lee used to write his first
> browser. VMS on a VAX machine I have read. Is there anything like this in
> the archive? A VAX emulator and VMS OS?

I've heard of a free VAX emulator called SIMH/vax, and a commercial
one named Charon-VAX (or something), but I've tested neither.  If you're
adventurous enough, you might consider real VAX hardware: the VAXstation
3100 and 4000 series models can be had at reasonable cost, and are not
larger than a desktop PC.  As for VMS, at least the recent 7.x versions
are available more or less freely for hobbyist use.

By the way, are there releases of Xenix that run on PDP-hardware?
I've only ever heard of PC (8086+)-based ones.

-aw

[pups] Bob's emulator and ultrix

[Christopher McNabb]

On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 01:42 +0000, Charlie ROOT wrote:
> By the way, are there releases of Xenix that run on PDP-hardware?
> I've only ever heard of PC (8086+)-based ones. 

In my memory, it seems that Xenix was originally done for the Motorola
68000 then ported to the Intel x86 architecture.  The first real "Unix"
I ever ran, by the way, was Microsoft Xenix on a Motorola 68000 based
Tandy 6000.  I do not believe that Xenix *ever* ran on PDP based
hardware.

[pups] Bob's emulator and ultrix

[Bill Gunshannon]

> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 01:42 +0000, Charlie ROOT wrote:
>> By the way, are there releases of Xenix that run on PDP-hardware?
>> I've only ever heard of PC (8086+)-based ones.
>
> In my memory, it seems that Xenix was originally done for the Motorola
> 68000 then ported to the Intel x86 architecture.  The first real "Unix"
> I ever ran, by the way, was Microsoft Xenix on a Motorola 68000 based
> Tandy 6000.  I do not believe that Xenix *ever* ran on PDP based
> hardware.

My 1985 PDP11 Software Sourcebook lists XENIX for the PDP11 as
being available from SCO.  It also lists Venix as available for
other than just the Pro.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>

[pups] Bob's emulator and ultrix

[Carl Lowenstein]

On 4/18/06, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
>      [ Please reply to Bill if you can, I don't know if he's on the list ]
>
> ----- Forwarded message from Bill Cunningham <billcu1 at verizon.net> -----
>
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:32:27 -0400
> From: "Bill Cunningham" <billcu1 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Bob's emulator and ultrix
> To: <wkt at tuhs.org>
>
> I can't get the sim 2.3d to boot ultrix 3.1 or xenix or anyother boot tapes
> in the uhs's archive. I have compiled the pdp11 emulator with gcc-3.4.6. I
> am also interested in the OS Tim Berners-Lee used to write his first
> browser. VMS on a VAX machine I have read. Is there anything like this in
> the archive? A VAX emulator and VMS OS?

Tim Berners-Lee developed what became the WWW, server and browser, on
a NeXT computer running the NeXTstep OS.  There is not a whole lot of
public knowledge about the internals of the NeXT hardware, which makes
it difficult to write an emulator for it.

There is a slowly progressing effort to port NetBSD to NeXT hardware. 
Also, the last few releases of NeXTstep and OpenStep would run either
on NeXT hardware or selected x86 hardware.  Somewhere there is a
writeup covering the subject of running OpenStep on the VMware virtual
machine.

None of this is VAX, nor is it any other hardware covered by SimH.

    carl
--
    carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
                                                 clowenst at ucsd.edu

[pups] Bob's emulator and ultrix

[Tore S Bekkedal]

On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 10:46 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
>      [ Please reply to Bill if you can, I don't know if he's on the list ]
> ----- Forwarded message from Bill Cunningham <billcu1 at verizon.net> -----
> I
> am also interested in the OS Tim Berners-Lee used to write his first
> browser.
You mean SINTRAN III/VSX?

[pups] Bob's emulator and ultrix

[Bill Cunningham]

> You mean SINTRAN III/VSX?

    Is there quite a disagreement in what the first browser was?

Bill

[pups] Bob's emulator and ultrix

[Kelli Halliburton]

On Wednesday 19 April 2006 06:05 pm, Bill Cunningham wrote:
> > You mean SINTRAN III/VSX?
>
>     Is there quite a disagreement in what the first browser was?

Well, there seems to be some issue with ENQUIRE, Tim Berners-Lee's first foray 
into hypertext, but considering that that program may not have used a 
protocol named HTTP, a markup language named HTML, nor a spatial metaphor 
called the World Wide Web, it may not count.

The first time, AFAIK, that the terms we now know came together was in the 
browser built for NextStep.

[pups] Bob's emulator and ultrix

[Tim Bradshaw]

On 21 Apr 2006, at 04:37, Kelli Halliburton wrote:
>
> Well, there seems to be some issue with ENQUIRE, Tim Berners-Lee's  
> first foray
> into hypertext, but considering that that program may not have used a
> protocol named HTTP, a markup language named HTML, nor a spatial  
> metaphor
> called the World Wide Web, it may not count.

I think if you're going to count ENQUIRE you ought to count some of  
the other earlier hypertext systems.

--tim