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From: Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com>
To: Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com>
Cc: TUHS main list <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
Subject: Re: [TUHS] FreeBSD behind the times? (was: Favorite unix design principles?)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 10:49:21 -0600	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <48c18873-a536-d2e5-04cd-f5c581901726@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W7aAJD-s+2xx+cvbDq76+WyAUVCcsT3GsNXr_TN9+wPpA@mail.gmail.com>

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On 2/4/21 10:32 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 10:47 AM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com 
> <mailto:will.senn@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     [snip]
>
>     In response to the negative vibes around ZFS. [snip]
>
>
> I think the discordance is around the semantics ZFS's implementation 
> implies. Larry's point about mmap() vs a buffer cache is entirely 
> valid; it took lots of people heroic amounts of work worthy of Greek 
> sagas to bridge the difference between the original buffer and VM page 
> caches, but ZFS says, "meh. too much work; not worth it." The 
> practical implication of that is that memory mapped IO (via `mmap`) is 
> no longer coherent with file IO (via `open`/`close`/`read`/`write`) 
> without lots of work that both degrades performance and add complexity.
>
> The question that a lot of folks who use ZFS regularly ask is, "does 
> that matter?" And perhaps it doesn't: if I've got a file server 
> sitting there serving NFS, do I care what it's kernel is doing? As 
> long as it's saturating the network and disks, and it's reliable...not 
> really. (Incidentally, that was kind of the philosophy behind the 
> original plan9 file server kernel...as I heard the story, the rate of 
> change of the plan9 kernel proper was too high, so Ken split off the 
> file server portion into its own, special-purpose kernel, and it 
> stayed like that for ~20 years). Similarly, if I'm on the local 
> machine and the required coherence code is there and largely works, 
> then again, perhaps as a consumer of the filesystem, I just don't 
> care. After all, one can still get work done, and ZFS has a bunch of 
> other features that make it very attractive, right? In particular, 
> it's very good at NOT losing my data, kernel purity be damned.
>
> On the other hand, if we're discussing OS design and implementation, 
> (re)splitting the VM and buffer caches is a poor decision. One might 
> well ask, "why?" and the answer may be, "because it adds significant 
> complexity to the kernel." This to me seems like the crux of the 
> disagreement. Satisfied users of ZFS might legitimately ask, "who 
> cares?" and one might respond, "kernel maintainers." If the kernel is 
> mostly transparent as far as a particular use case goes, though, then 
> I can see why one would bulk at the suggestion that this matters. If 
> one is concerned with the design and implementation of kernels, I 
> could see why one would care very much.
>
> Like many things, it's a matter of perspective.
>
>         - Dan C.
>
Thanks for the comments, Dan. I see your point. I was thinking as a 
user/admin. In this light, I'll admit that I'm not an expert on the 
internals and say that I can only imagine the breadth of design 
tradeoffs that were contemplated and the many decisions that were made 
when coming up with ZFS. I'm glad somebody thought through them, and 
worked through them, though. So I could consume their work, 
Frankensteinian though it may be. Now, if somebody would only get it 
working properly in Linux (boot environments included), or even get 
BTRFS to be more realiable, I'd be a happy camper, at least for a while :).


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  reply	other threads:[~2021-02-04 16:53 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 70+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-01-25 11:10 [TUHS] Favorite unix design principles? Tyler Adams
2021-01-25 12:32 ` Steve Nickolas
2021-01-26  2:06   ` M Douglas McIlroy
2021-01-26  2:53     ` Steve Nickolas
2021-01-26 10:22     ` Tyler Adams
2021-01-26 12:26       ` John P. Linderman
2021-01-26 15:23       ` Clem Cole
2021-01-26 16:00         ` Niklas Karlsson
2021-01-26 16:13           ` Adam Thornton
     [not found]       ` <CAKH6PiXKjksEpQOMMMQTbcsMvX2thz3WzqjoRWJAsXnZ4Eq_iQ@mail.gmail.com>
2021-01-30 19:01         ` Tyler Adams
2021-01-30 19:50           ` Jon Steinhart
2021-01-30 20:06             ` Tyler Adams
2021-01-30 21:28               ` Clem Cole
2021-01-30 21:42                 ` Dave Horsfall
2021-01-30 21:45                 ` Tyler Adams
2021-01-30 22:31                   ` Larry McVoy
2021-01-30 22:28                 ` Larry McVoy
2021-01-30 23:11                   ` [TUHS] FreeBSD behind the times? (was: Favorite unix design principles?) Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2021-01-30 23:17                     ` Larry McVoy
2021-01-30 23:22                       ` Warner Losh
2021-01-30 23:31                         ` [TUHS] [SPAM] " Larry McVoy
2021-01-30 23:37                           ` Jon Steinhart
2021-01-30 23:54                             ` Larry McVoy
2021-01-31 12:23                               ` [TUHS] [SPAM] Re: FreeBSD behind the times? Dermot Tynan
2021-01-31  0:00                             ` [TUHS] [SPAM] Re: FreeBSD behind the times? (was: Favorite unix design principles?) Bakul Shah
2021-02-09  2:15                         ` [TUHS] " Will Senn
2021-02-09  2:16                           ` Will Senn
2021-02-09  2:30                             ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2021-01-31  0:39                     ` Steve Nickolas
2021-01-31  1:47                     ` Will Senn
2021-01-31  2:25                       ` Larry McVoy
2021-01-31  2:52                         ` Will Senn
2021-01-31  3:00                           ` Larry McVoy
2021-01-31  3:06                             ` Will Senn
2021-01-31  3:32                               ` John Cowan
2021-02-04  5:43                         ` Dave Horsfall
2021-02-04  6:10                           ` Angus Robinson
2021-02-04  7:46                             ` Andy Kosela
2021-02-04 22:25                             ` Dave Horsfall
2021-02-04 15:45                           ` Will Senn
2021-02-04 16:03                             ` Henry Bent
2021-02-04 16:32                             ` Dan Cross
2021-02-04 16:49                               ` Will Senn [this message]
2021-02-04 17:46                               ` Larry McVoy
2021-02-04 18:41                               ` Bakul Shah
2021-02-04 22:28                                 ` George Michaelson
2021-02-04 22:41                                   ` Bakul Shah
2021-02-05  0:33                                   ` Larry McVoy
2021-02-05  5:17                                     ` Bakul Shah
2021-02-05 14:18                                       ` Larry McVoy
2021-02-05 18:16                                         ` Warner Losh
2021-02-05 18:21                                         ` ron minnich
2021-02-06  0:03                                         ` Bakul Shah
2021-02-06  2:06                                           ` Dan Cross
2021-02-06  3:01                                             ` Bakul Shah
2021-02-06  1:18                                         ` John Gilmore
2021-02-06  1:43                                           ` joe mcguckin
2021-02-06  1:55                                           ` Bakul Shah
2021-02-05 20:50                             ` Dave Horsfall
2021-02-06  0:21                               ` Brad Spencer
2021-02-06  2:22                               ` Rico Pajarola
2021-02-06  2:55                                 ` Larry McVoy
2021-02-06  3:07                                   ` Will Senn
2021-02-27  8:54                                   ` Stuart Remphrey
2021-02-06  4:55                               ` John Cowan
2021-02-04  7:46                         ` Chris Torek
2021-02-04 15:47                           ` Will Senn
2021-02-11 21:01                         ` Angel M Alganza
2021-01-30 23:09                 ` [TUHS] Favorite unix design principles? John Cowan
2021-01-30 23:22                   ` Jon Steinhart

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