From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 5349 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2023 19:14:06 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 30 Jan 2023 19:14:06 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9244260E; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 05:14:01 +1000 (AEST) Received: from server907.appriver.com (server907e.appriver.com [204.232.250.40]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92D194246F for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 05:13:56 +1000 (AEST) X-Note: This Email was scanned by AppRiver SecureTide X-Note-AR-ScanTimeLocal: 01/30/2023 2:14:22 PM X-Note: SecureTide Build: 11/1/2022 2:52:12 PM UTC (2.26.0.0) X-Note: Filtered by 10.246.1.77 X-Note-AR-Scan: None - PIPE Received: by server907.appriver.com (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 6.2.15) with PIPE id 280554403; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 14:14:22 -0500 Received: from [10.246.0.39] (HELO smtp.us.exg7.exghost.com) by server907.appriver.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.15) with ESMTPS id 280554391; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 14:14:21 -0500 Received: from E19DN02C-S1E7.exg7.exghost.local (192.168.244.113) by E19DN03C-S1E7.exg7.exghost.local (192.168.244.201) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.2.1118.21; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 14:13:46 -0500 Received: from E19DN02C-S1E7.exg7.exghost.local ([192.168.244.113]) by E19DN02C-S1E7.exg7.exghost.local ([192.168.244.113]) with mapi id 15.02.1118.021; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 14:12:37 -0500 From: Brantley Coile To: Dan Cross Thread-Topic: [TUHS] FD 2 Thread-Index: AQHZNN7Qg7HU5kKuy0GCIvlsu4dGBw== Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 19:12:37 +0000 Message-ID: <49876ABC-A79D-4FFB-8D62-B932C524BA53@coraid.com> References: <202301300750.30U7oQTh013304@freefriends.org> <20230130150219.GD12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130152703.GE12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130154555.GF12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130161846.GH12306@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [47.46.143.102] x-rerouted-by-exchange: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Note: This Email was scanned by AppRiver SecureTide X-Note-AR-ScanTimeLocal: 01/30/2023 2:14:21 PM X-Note: SecureTide Build: 11/1/2022 2:52:12 PM UTC (2.26.0.0) X-Note: Filtered by 10.246.1.77 X-Policy: coraid.com X-Primary: coraid.com@coraid.com X-Note-Sender: brantley@coraid.com X-Note-Envelope-Recip: FAILURE,DELAY, X-Note-Envelope-Recip: FAILURE,DELAY, X-Note-Envelope-Recip: FAILURE,DELAY, X-Virus-Scan: V- X-Note-SnifferID: 0 X-GBUdb-Analysis: 1, 192.168.244.113, Ugly c=0.614549 p=-0.96401 Source White X-Signature-Violations: 0-0-0-7400-c X-Note-419: 15.6315 ms. Fail:0 Chk:1438 of 1438 total X-Note: VSCH-CT/SI: 0-1438/SG:1 1/30/2023 2:13:50 PM X-Note: Spam Tests Failed: X-Country-Path: United States of America->PRIVATE->PRIVATE-> X-Note-Sending-IP: 10.246.0.39 X-Note-Reverse-DNS: X-Note-Return-Path: brantley@coraid.com X-Note: User Rule Hits: X-Note: Global Rule Hits: G1044 G1046 G1047 G1048 G1049 G1067 G1068 G1069 G1602 G2173 X-Note: Encrypt Rule Hits: X-Note: Mail Class: VALID Message-ID-Hash: GQ2WCCUGL7XZB5FOBA6PPUD4QXND4662 X-Message-ID-Hash: GQ2WCCUGL7XZB5FOBA6PPUD4QXND4662 X-MailFrom: brantley@coraid.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: FD 2 List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: I have my own theory on why Plan 9 never caught on. It was never productize= d. It was a modern system arriving right at the post modern age emerged so it didn't resonate with the folks who were doing things. It was too early to be recognized as a cloud operating system, which is what it really is. I say "is" because we actually use it and have done so since 1995. We still ship appliances based on it. We do all our development on it. I have dumps on our file server (Ken's) going back to Jun 22, 2004.=20 I can't really know for sure, but I think those are the three reasons: never made a product, modern not post modern, too early for the cloud. Brantley Coile > On Jan 30, 2023, at 2:03 PM, Dan Cross wrote: >=20 > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 11:18 AM Larry McVoy wrote: >> On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 11:09:03AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: >>> On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:45 AM Larry McVoy wrote: >>>> On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:35:25AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: >>>>> Plan 9 was different, and a lot of people who were familiar with Unix >>>>> didn't like that, and were not interested in trying out a different >>>>> way if it meant that they couldn't bring their existing mental models >>>>> and workflows into the new environment unchanged. >>>>>=20 >>>>> At one point it struck me that Plan 9 didn't succeed as a widespread >>>>> replacement for Unix/Linux because it was bad or incapable, but >>>>> rather, because people wanted Linux, and not plan9. >>>>=20 >>>> Many people make that mistake. New stuff instead of extend old stuff. >>>=20 >>> Some would argue that's not a mistake. How else do we innovate if >>> we're just incrementally polishing what's come before? >>=20 >> I didn't say limit yourself to polishing, I said try and not invalidate >> people's knowledge while innovating. >>=20 >> Too many people go down the path of doing things very differently and >> they rationalize that they have to do it that way to innovate. That's >> fine but it means it is going to be harder to get people to try your >> new stuff. >>=20 >> The point I'm trying to make is that "different" is a higher barrier, >> much, much higher, than "extend". People frequently ignore that and >> that means other people ignore their work. >>=20 >> It is what it is, I doubt I'll convice anyone so I'll drop it. >=20 > Oh, I don't know. I think it's actually kind of important to see _why_ > people didn't want to look deeper into plan9 (for example). The system > had a lot to offer, but you had to dig a bit to get into it; a lot of > folks never got that far. If it was really lack of job control, then > that's a shame. >=20 > - Dan C.