From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 2841 invoked from network); 31 Jan 2021 02:52:38 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 31 Jan 2021 02:52:38 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A44A29C7D9; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 12:52:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AF6A9C653; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 12:52:15 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="opVuDkiO"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 145F09C653; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 12:52:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ot1-f47.google.com (mail-ot1-f47.google.com [209.85.210.47]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4F8A9C63D for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 12:52:11 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ot1-f47.google.com with SMTP id n42so12745286ota.12 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 18:52:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=QfX7ZA8JdXJaykjNnpkF0exKpuLLhb8j8d2E5BLtYoo=; b=opVuDkiOeyeSW6n0RxosIKkoKKHgPalI/JX/Fju4aSZsl8XdGXc+cG9dJHhAIx3MrD W4k/X7UBGWySdhMRqv8YtkGXqySaorVx+EgthCbP/xEBUk0AxeD549B3wquLj2r00Z+z FtUGjFkB3yWG+3XsDUOS7UDqARM8Us6dpywPGnF31nkwTK+rSQg5gYEPF/8s7YKAomhD RQRjmmODtU/a3pbi5Sjdfw6CI/DWI3/fqAvSqjXna5wvSjEmm+UxNbirJ4NgUC5D91dB 92JvWDtkmKmb6TU+CNNFjeKZvJJZuRNEYQTJHSf1ZcbpdW9XuQlA/zC/KXFhdaG8LLO9 GeJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=QfX7ZA8JdXJaykjNnpkF0exKpuLLhb8j8d2E5BLtYoo=; b=aqIO9fQs0YFANHWSlZyo+14MbjoxAxjmZ6bXLQdteOy/+11ipoUb/a8YVWHHnD/W8E hsjbMtFYOPBmD0PNzPJcE+X3HCWd45ieR+Cjf2IkvUbDGr5puImby7OYCeIzVtr3TqPa +vu7EO0jQM04ShTBO1w/179JxkwiyZtlnD9rPwe3WFYnqwZ+uK2S+4jA2l4amO4TuNRa 1pIxpxckL68jaNQ+yvFgF+pXjIfIiLZSYcGA57Sec9zgCO3OWNMGCtdz6UA8N4lTI7jQ PuTN1VBUm7k7U95259UHJfj6e9YpUeD+g6irw42lS1Fz+6j9BiZE2QNU21+1yDYKVzVc wULw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533K02/K2s4AHi5/ppKCNJAOmjDWWXpHKQEeKPBgQSrtgrYjvIAH bStqDf3CBpGRMJKTW7ry49U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwYLAPp0l9UGc4rmWQ0MXkABRzvGJb+Fe4eexzMBMDEyYveV8wfJ1l2Mij5b4ZIz5Fc3h0lsQ== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:171b:: with SMTP id i27mr7636698ota.203.1612061530847; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 18:52:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.51.113.134] ([107.242.124.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z4sm3346438ooz.5.2021.01.30.18.52.10 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 30 Jan 2021 18:52:10 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Will Senn X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16H22) In-Reply-To: <20210131022500.GU4227@mcvoy.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 20:52:09 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4B3239A9-A165-4F00-8EF1-A674CBCFC7FF@gmail.com> References: <202101301950.10UJoWeA456408@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20210130222854.GN4227@mcvoy.com> <20210130231119.GA33905@eureka.lemis.com> <20210131022500.GU4227@mcvoy.com> To: Larry McVoy Subject: Re: [TUHS] FreeBSD behind the times? (was: Favorite unix design principles?) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Ha. Zfs may not be the be all and end all, but like I said, it=E2=80=99s nev= er failed me. Whereas extX and btrfs, and, and, and have many times. Please d= on=E2=80=99t denigrate my knowledge, as so far as I know, we=E2=80=99ve neve= r met, and nothing I said warrants such. The installer reminds me of Redhat=E2= =80=99s old anaconda installer, I=E2=80=99ll grant you it=E2=80=99s dated. H= owever, I typically install a new linux distro every week and there are many= , many installers that are far more confusing - Open Suse and Fedora are two= that come to mind, Debian as well. I would hazard to guess your favorite Li= nux is based on a distro that lacks a decent installer (Ubuntu and Mint are D= ebian based).=20 Will Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 30, 2021, at 8:25 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: >=20 > If you like ZFS you don't understand operating systems design. I do. > Jeff Bonwick was a stats student at Stanford when he took my OS class, > I convinced him to come to Sun. Bill Moore worked for me. That's the two= > main ZFS guys and I thought I had taught them well but they let me down. >=20 > ZFS doesn't use the page cache, they said it was too hard because ZFS > is compressed. A typical file system just has block numbers, a compressed= > one needs another int per block, it's the int that says these many bytes > are a block uncompressed. It's not that hard, it is 2 ints instead of 1. >=20 > In case I'm not being clear, the page cache is what everyone else uses > but ZFS has its own cache. So if you want to mmap() a ZFS file, ZFS > has to bcopy() the data into the page cache and then spend a shit ton > of code to make sure that the page cache data is in sync with the ZFS > cache data. >=20 > SunOS came from BSD but SunOS added mmap. Which had the same problem, > the BSD buffer cache was exactly the same as the ZFS cache, Sun spent=20 > years of effort to get rid of the buffer cache, everything is in the=20 > page cache. So ZFS was a HUGE step backwards in systems design. Might > be the best file system ever (it is not) but it was not a good player > in the OS world. >=20 > Those guys said that it was too hard to make a compressed file fit in > the page cache. BitKeeper has that code and proves that it can be done. > Be happy to walk anyone who cares through that code, I didn't write that, > Wayne Scott did, but it's some of the best written code I've ever seen. > Up there with Mojo's work on the SunOS VM system. (I'll bet that noone > takes me up on this offer, people love to argue but most don't want to > learn. Prove me wrong, please). >=20 > So good on you that you like ZFS and FreeBSD. I don't and I don't for > really good reasons. >=20 > Let's try it this way. Get back to me when you can show me 40 people=20 > who have installed FreeBSD on their own, with no help. In the same=20 > time, I can show you 40,000 people who have installed Linux on their > own, with no help. Probably 400,000. >=20 > Technology is great, ease of use is what gets you users. ZFS is > great but doesn't play nice with the OS. >=20 > That's my oh brother. >=20 >> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 07:47:41PM -0600, Will Senn wrote: >> Oh brother. I use FreeBSD all the time. I prefer it for its stability and= ZFS which has NEVER let me down and I???ve done my share of stupid user err= or. Now that Linux has ZFS, it doesn???t seem as stuck in the dark ages, but= uptime on my fbsd instance is 10x any of my Linux instances. We are soooo o= ff topic, I think :). But, I???m always up for talking up FBSD. I use it in m= y classes, too and the system is much more coherent for my systems programmi= ng classes than linux. >>=20 >> Will >>=20 >> Sent from my iPhone >>=20 >>>> On Jan 30, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote= : >>>>=20 >>>>> On Saturday, 30 January 2021 at 14:28:54 -0800, Larry McVoy wrote: >>>>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 04:28:26PM -0500, Clem Cole wrote: >>>>> If I could get the day-2-day >>>>> applications that I need to work on FreeBSD, I suspect I would be ther= e in >>>>> a heartbeat. >>>>=20 >>>> I dunno about that. I tried out FreeBSD a couple of years ago when >>>> Netflix was flirting with me. The installer hasn't seen any loving in >>>> 30 years it would seem. The disk setup tool sucks just as bad as it >>>> did back in 1988. >>>=20 >>> You could be right there, for some value of 1988 (FreeBSD came into >>> being in 1992). The tools work without being good. But how often do >>> you use them? I've been using FreeBSD since the beginning, and I >>> can't recall when I last used the disk partitioning tool, though I'm >>> sure that when I did I overrode a lot of (all?) the suggestions. >>>=20 >>>> I remember when Linux was this bad in the .90ish releases. A long >>>> time ago. Now their install is painless, it's every bit as good as >>>> Windows and maybe better. >>>=20 >>> FWIW, I find Microsoft "Windows" installation terminally confusing >>> (that's what you were talking about, right?). And I've run into >>> serious problems with various Linux installations too. That doesn't >>> make the FreeBSD tools better, but maybe it relativizes it. >>>=20 >>>> And it got that way fast, I remember doing an install on some >>>> machine around 1998 or 1999, I didn't have a mouse plugged in, no >>>> worries, you could just move around with the keyboard. X11 came up >>>> as part of the install, the entire install was graphical and >>>> seamless. >>>=20 >>> The FreeBSD installer *does* install X if you select it. >>>=20 >>>> FreeBSD is stuck in the 1990's in terms of user interface. >>>=20 >>> You're still talking about the installer, aren't you? The normal user >>> interface is via the shell, which hasn't changed, and for a good >>> reason. >>>=20 >>>> They've done some good stuff in the kernel but it's not an end user >>>> system, >>>=20 >>> There I have to agree with you. A little TLC would go a long way. >>> But I hope that you're not advocating the "change your GUI with your >>> underwear" attitude that Microsoft, Apple and many Linux distros >>> have. One of the reasons I don't use Linux is because every time I >>> try, the interface has changed. >>>=20 >>> Greg >>> -- >>> Sent from my desktop computer. >>> Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. >>> See complete headers for address and phone numbers. >>> This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program >>> reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA >=20 > --=20 > --- > Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcv= oy.com/lm=20