[pups] PDP-11 (SIMH), Seventh Edition UNIX

[pups] PDP-11 (SIMH), Seventh Edition UNIX

[Mark Tuson]

Hi everyone, this is my first message, after being on the mailing list 
for the best part of three years :)

I've a couple of [hopefully] simple questions about running Seventh 
Edition UNIX on SIMH.

The first question is: how can I get the C compiler to work properly? 
When I've tried to compile programs, I get 'cannot create temp' - here's 
a full list of what's on the screen:

@boot
New Boot, known devices are hp ht rk rl rp tm vt
: rl(0,0)rl2unix
mem = 177856
# Thu Sep 22 07:50:47 EDT 1988

login: mark
$ ed
a
main() {
   printf("  Hello.\n");
   return; }

.
w a.c
46
q
$ cc a.c
cc: cannot create temp
$

Also, how can I get the backspace key to erase? I've done /stty erase 
'^H'/ but I have to actually type <CTRL>+H to erase.

The other thing I want to ask about is: can I compile SIMH on DOS, so it 
doesn't display any messages except those of the simulated software, and 
so it ignores ^E?

I'm asking because I want v7 on an ancient laptop I've got lying around 
- a 486 with 24M of core. v7x86 won't work on it, and I don't really 
fancy putting Slack 3 back on it - if I'm going to go outdated, I might 
as well go the whole hog and go /really/ outdated.

Though I might consider 2.11BSD, if that'll work on a machine with 24M 
of core, and if the escapes will display properly, because

[24;1H[?1h=[;H[2J
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~
                  ~[H

is a little bit difficult to work with when I'm wanting to edit source code.

Thanks very much. Mark Tuson.
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[pups] PDP-11 (SIMH), Seventh Edition UNIX

[Nick Downing]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4886 bytes --]

A cursory examination shows that only unix compilers are supported
(see makefile) and Win32 (see build_mingw*.bat).  There is no reason
in principle why you couldn't compile it with djgpp
http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/ however.  This would probably be the
easiest thing because djgpp is a version of gcc and the code is known
to compile under gcc on the unix platforms.  As you won't be running
in a Windows DOS box, you must provide a DOS extender (or more
correctly a DPMI server), a free one is PMODE/W
http://www.sid6581.net/pmodew/ which has worked for me in the past.
Another option would be to compile with the free Watcom C/C++
compilers which I believe come bundled with DOS/4GW (Rational Systems,
now Tenberry Software) as the DOS extender.

More of a problem is the devices, you realize that the more basic your
system the more trouble you are going to have getting information in?
If you only want to run the editor and C compiler for experimentation
then you will get bored very quickly, I remember as a student we had
access to unix terminals via a serial link and since I didn't
understand telnet or ftp and didn't have any internet access and no
way to put a file on or off the system it was totally useless to me.
With SIMH you can transfer stuff via simulated tapes (basically tar
files) but since you want to disable ^E you won't be able to do that.

I would suggest you use 2.11BSD because it has networking features so
you can easily transfer your source code/etc on and off the system.
However that leads to a nasty problem, which is that you will have to
obtain a DOS packet driver for your laptop
http://www.brutman.com/Dos_Networking/packet_drivers.html and
implement a simulated network device for SIMH, I did something like
this a while ago and it isn't trivial.  (Another option would be to
get a FOSSIL driver http://pcmicro.com/bnu/ and implement a simulated
serial device for SIMH, you could then make a SLIP connection to a
Linux or Windows machine).  All things considered I believe your best
option is to restore Slackware 3 (or some other linux) and then run
SIMH under that, with the TUN/TAP device or whatever to allow an
ethernet connection.  Somewhere I have a set of floppy disk images, I
think it was Slackware 4, which you could write out to floppy and
install on the box.

cheers, Nick

On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 2:29 AM, Mark Tuson <markfptuson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi everyone, this is my first message, after being on the mailing list for
> the best part of three years :)
>
> I've a couple of [hopefully] simple questions about running Seventh Edition
> UNIX on SIMH.
>
> The first question is: how can I get the C compiler to work properly? When
> I've tried to compile programs, I get 'cannot create temp' - here's a full
> list of what's on the screen:
>
> @boot
> New Boot, known devices are hp ht rk rl rp tm vt
> : rl(0,0)rl2unix
> mem = 177856
> # Thu Sep 22 07:50:47 EDT 1988
>
> login: mark
> $ ed
> a
> main() {
>   printf("  Hello.\n");
>   return; }
>
> .
> w a.c
> 46
> q
> $ cc a.c
> cc: cannot create temp
> $
>
> Also, how can I get the backspace key to erase? I've done stty erase '^H'
> but I have to actually type <CTRL>+H to erase.
>
> The other thing I want to ask about is: can I compile SIMH on DOS, so it
> doesn't display any messages except those of the simulated software, and so
> it ignores ^E?
>
> I'm asking because I want v7 on an ancient laptop I've got lying around - a
> 486 with 24M of core. v7x86 won't work on it, and I don't really fancy
> putting Slack 3 back on it - if I'm going to go outdated, I might as well go
> the whole hog and go really outdated.
>
> Though I might consider 2.11BSD, if that'll work on a machine with 24M of
> core, and if the escapes will display properly, because
>
> [24;1H[?1h=[;H[2J
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~[H
>
> is a little bit difficult to work with when I'm wanting to edit source code.
>
> Thanks very much. Mark Tuson.
>
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
>
>

[pups] PDP-11 (SIMH), Seventh Edition UNIX

[Frank Wortner]

On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Mark Tuson <markfptuson at gmail.com> wrote:

> The first question is: how can I get the C compiler to work properly? When
> I've tried to compile programs, I get 'cannot create temp'
>

Try checking to see if there is any disk space left on the root RL device.
It may be full -- these were tiny by today's standards -- disk drives.  10
Mb, if I recall correctly.

The other possibility is that the /tmp directory has the wron permission.
It should be read/write to all (drwxrwxrwx).  If not, try running chmod 0777
/tmp as root, then try compiling again.


>
> Also, how can I get the backspace key to erase? I've done *stty erase '^H'
> * but I have to actually type <CTRL>+H to erase.
>
> The other thing I want to ask about is: can I compile SIMH on DOS, so it
> doesn't display any messages except those of the simulated software, and so
> it ignores ^E?
>

You can fix the control E problem by running the command

SET CONSOLE WRU char

... where char is the charcter you wish to use.  (WRU stands for "where are
you" according to the SIMH documentation
http://simh.trailing-edge.com/pdf/simh_doc.pdf).




> I'm asking because I want v7 on an ancient laptop I've got lying around - a
> 486 with 24M of core. v7x86 won't work on it, and I don't really fancy
> putting Slack 3 back on it - if I'm going to go outdated, I might as well go
> the whole hog and go *really* outdated.
>
> Though I might consider 2.11BSD, if that'll work on a machine with 24M of
> core, and if the escapes will display properly, because
>

The biggest PDP-11 had 4 Mb of memory, so you certainly won't be limited
there.  I suspect that if you run nothing else,on the machine you will get
fair perfomance on the emulated PDP-11.  2.11 BSD should run.

As far as your other terminal problems, you probably just need an
appropriate setting for the TERM environment variable to get vi to work.
Usually TERM=vt100 works, but your mileage may vary.

Real men use ed, though!  [?]  I always amaze people by being by being able
to use ed.  Of course, that's because I'm very old -- old enough to have
actually used V6 on a real PDP-11.  I think I'll take a nap now.

-- 
"Jazz music stimulates the minds and uplifts the souls of those who play it
was well as of those who listen to immerse themselves in it. As the mind is
stimulated and the soul uplifted, this is eventually reflected in the body."
-- Horace Silver
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[pups] PDP-11 (SIMH), Seventh Edition UNIX

[Johnny Billquist]

Mark Tuson wrote:
> Hi everyone, this is my first message, after being on the mailing list 
> for the best part of three years :)
> 
> I've a couple of [hopefully] simple questions about running Seventh 
> Edition UNIX on SIMH.

Oh joy! :-)

> The first question is: how can I get the C compiler to work properly? 
> When I've tried to compile programs, I get 'cannot create temp' - here's 
> a full list of what's on the screen:
> 
> @boot
> New Boot, known devices are hp ht rk rl rp tm vt
> : rl(0,0)rl2unix
> mem = 177856
> # Thu Sep 22 07:50:47 EDT 1988
> 
> login: mark
> $ ed
> a
> main() {
>   printf("  Hello.\n");
>   return; }
> 
> .
> w a.c
> 46
> q
> $ cc a.c
> cc: cannot create temp
> $

As others have mentioned, it could be problems with /tmp protection, as 
well as checking if there actually is any free space there.

> Also, how can I get the backspace key to erase? I've done /stty erase 
> '^H'/ but I have to actually type <CTRL>+H to erase.

You need to know what code the key you call "backspace" actually sends. 
I suspect it is not sending a backspace, but a DEL (DEL is actually the 
traditional character used to delete, BS is a modern perversion).

> The other thing I want to ask about is: can I compile SIMH on DOS, so it 
> doesn't display any messages except those of the simulated software, and 
> so it ignores ^E?

For the messages, I'm not sure what you are thinking of. Is it the ones 
before boot time, or is there some other messages that you see?

As for the ^E, that is configured in simh when running.

> I'm asking because I want v7 on an ancient laptop I've got lying around 
> - a 486 with 24M of core. v7x86 won't work on it, and I don't really 
> fancy putting Slack 3 back on it - if I'm going to go outdated, I might 
> as well go the whole hog and go /really/ outdated.

:-)

> Though I might consider 2.11BSD, if that'll work on a machine with 24M 
> of core, and if the escapes will display properly, because
> 
> [24;1H[?1h=[;H[2J
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~
>                  ~[H
> 
> is a little bit difficult to work with when I'm wanting to edit source code.

2.11BSD won't make a difference. You'll see the same result. This is a 
problem because you are running under DOS. It is the DOS screen handler 
that needs to understand whatever codes are output by the programs 
running inside simh. In this case, the program inside simh thinks it is 
connected to a VT100 (or xterm, or something similar), and sends escape 
codes based on that. I don't know why it thinks so, but I suspect you 
told the system by setting the TERM variable. Please set it to something 
that matches reality, or else fix reality. :-)

	Johnny

[pups] PDP-11 (SIMH), Seventh Edition UNIX

[Frank Wortner]

You've bested me there -- by a little.  I only had the Sixth Edition on an 11/45.  Now I could probably emulate that system on this iPhone, and it would run faster than the actual hardware.

Oh well, time to stop wallowing in nostalgia.  ;-)

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 28, 2010, at 9:42 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> And besides, I've used V5 on a /40 :-)
> 
> -- Dave, turning 58 next month

[pups] PDP-11 (SIMH), Seventh Edition UNIX

[Bob Eager]

We had what I believe was one of the first (if not the first) UNIX
system in England. Sixth Edition on an 11/40, with two RK05 drives.

And I don't even know anyone else who tried Mini-UNIX - I put it on an
11/20.


On Wed, 29 Sep 2010 07:49:55 -0400
Frank Wortner <frank at wortner.com> wrote:

> You've bested me there -- by a little.  I only had the Sixth Edition
> on an 11/45.  Now I could probably emulate that system on this
> iPhone, and it would run faster than the actual hardware.
> 
> Oh well, time to stop wallowing in nostalgia.  ;-)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 28, 2010, at 9:42 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> > And besides, I've used V5 on a /40 :-)
> > 
> > -- Dave, turning 58 next month
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups

[pups] PDP-11 (SIMH), Seventh Edition UNIX

[Bill Pechter]

Anyone else here remember fansi-console's ansi emulator.

Works great instead of ansi.sys and is a pretty good screen driver for dos.

On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 5:24 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:

> Mark Tuson wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone, this is my first message, after being on the mailing list for
>> the best part of three years :)
>>
> Though I might consider 2.11BSD, if that'll work on a machine with 24M of
> core, and if the escapes will display properly, because
>
>>
>> [24;1H[?1h=[;H[2J
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~
>>                 ~[H
>>
>> is a little bit difficult to work with when I'm wanting to edit source
>> code.
>>
>
> 2.11BSD won't make a difference. You'll see the same result. This is a
> problem because you are running under DOS. It is the DOS screen handler that
> needs to understand whatever codes are output by the programs running inside
> simh. In this case, the program inside simh thinks it is connected to a
> VT100 (or xterm, or something similar), and sends escape codes based on
> that. I don't know why it thinks so, but I suspect you told the system by
> setting the TERM variable. Please set it to something that matches reality,
> or else fix reality. :-)
>
>        Johnny
>


Anyone else here remember fansi-console's ansi emulator.

Works great instead of ansi.sys and is a pretty good screen driver for dos.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-11953307.html

Bill

--
  d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN.  Don't you wish you could still buy it now!
 pechter-at-gmail.com
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[pups] PDP-11 (SIMH), Seventh Edition UNIX

[Jay Jaeger]

I do indeed.

At 10:02 AM 9/29/2010 -0400, Bill Pechter wrote:
>Anyone else here remember fansi-console's ansi emulator.
>
>Works great instead of ansi.sys and is a pretty good screen driver for dos.
>
>On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 5:24 AM, Johnny Billquist 
><<mailto:bqt at softjar.se>bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
>Mark Tuson wrote:
>Hi everyone, this is my first message, after being on the mailing list for 
>the best part of three years :)
>
>Though I might consider 2.11BSD, if that'll work on a machine with 24M of 
>core, and if the escapes will display properly, because
>[24;1H[?1h=[;H[2J
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~
>                 ~[H
>
>is a little bit difficult to work with when I'm wanting to edit source code.
>
>
>2.11BSD won't make a difference. You'll see the same result. This is a 
>problem because you are running under DOS. It is the DOS screen handler 
>that needs to understand whatever codes are output by the programs running 
>inside simh. In this case, the program inside simh thinks it is connected 
>to a VT100 (or xterm, or something similar), and sends escape codes based 
>on that. I don't know why it thinks so, but I suspect you told the system 
>by setting the TERM variable. Please set it to something that matches 
>reality, or else fix reality. :-)
>
>        Johnny
>
>
>
>Anyone else here remember fansi-console's ansi emulator.
>
>Works great instead of ansi.sys and is a pretty good screen driver for dos.
>
><http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-11953307.html>http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-11953307.html
>
>Bill
>
>--
>   d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN.  Don't you wish you could still buy it now!
>  <http://pechter-at-gmail.com>pechter-at-gmail.com
>_______________________________________________
>PUPS mailing list
>PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
>https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups

---
Jay R. Jaeger                                   The Computer Collection
cube1 at charter.net 
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[pups] PDP-11 (SIMH), Seventh Edition UNIX

[Jay Jaeger]

We had a tape at the Univ. of Wisconsin, and a friend played with it, also 
on an 11/20 (of which I have two in my collection -- neither that 
particular 11/20, though one is its very close relative).

The image that is on PUPS came from that friend, via myself, to PUPS.

At 12:56 PM 9/29/2010 +0100, Bob Eager wrote:
>We had what I believe was one of the first (if not the first) UNIX
>system in England. Sixth Edition on an 11/40, with two RK05 drives.
>
>And I don't even know anyone else who tried Mini-UNIX - I put it on an
>11/20.
>
>
>On Wed, 29 Sep 2010 07:49:55 -0400
>Frank Wortner <frank at wortner.com> wrote:
>
> > You've bested me there -- by a little.  I only had the Sixth Edition
> > on an 11/45.  Now I could probably emulate that system on this
> > iPhone, and it would run faster than the actual hardware.
> >
> > Oh well, time to stop wallowing in nostalgia.  ;-)
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Sep 28, 2010, at 9:42 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> > > And besides, I've used V5 on a /40 :-)
> > >
> > > -- Dave, turning 58 next month
> > _______________________________________________
> > PUPS mailing list
> > PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
>
>_______________________________________________
>PUPS mailing list
>PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
>https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups

---	
Jay R. Jaeger					The Computer Collection
cube1 at charter.net