From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,LOTS_OF_MONEY,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 5639 invoked from network); 16 Jan 2023 02:00:19 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 16 Jan 2023 02:00:19 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C25441BBF; Mon, 16 Jan 2023 12:00:07 +1000 (AEST) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97FD341BB8 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2023 12:00:01 +1000 (AEST) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 936953200917; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 20:59:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 15 Jan 2023 20:59:57 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=serissa.com; h= cc:cc:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject :subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1673834397; x=1673920797; bh=4PjQ2suEB0 vDpDZ4KwqI5XtPp1a15C9ugQyzJshhPBs=; b=bgrDmuPParRXQcboEoN6QcQfH5 reI5J25aeJLTvgz13LEe0aT9IchRy3FQL/C4Ez/u81zjhEjPadQV2xqkb5jPJZkZ AgUvUSihhw7MMyKDP3JnM0bZv9XgQLucTar85RXwZwtvm+tEZt21lJJf+hXoYarM 77WKJiQq/2sNoQJxsmvcEU3RQGKTzGRfCLvjSYC1KXVsrHoOgiRcLGC4sb29Dhq1 Ts1fHz5PX/BmrGdgZu0HyzxWq6PNCW0THKXbJkrjdj/TTw5Ug5CndLayLdS6itOn GJMgG2Ph3en5dq4O44m75/Rjcsx8KaZq5T6DlcjTVH7cv6mOZ5kUkuiPXSZQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:date:date:feedback-id :feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to :x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm3; t=1673834397; x=1673920797; bh=4PjQ2suEB0vDpDZ4KwqI5XtPp1a1 5C9ugQyzJshhPBs=; b=BpjayTTizEsOEF1cCg2wk/BJMggpJWCpi8ky2Fz+KpSL M1T4VFSJLd5Zb4gbIoYs7GRR6KNQViP0zC5Oxs88zVisZJZzcijlzR0CbLujdFvW SIcQLThliyx9T13l82fbXzFwXXDCoCe2xx3/Kh1cMrlyhMTVD7mbVPBjNhlgaMOD HLbUsCn4OZflXwz1rvNOqZ/V9zIoLYv6kEqDRMA5t2ApZeD5lyVXsEa3k+edW8Oi EfMftsaKtIztrWx+bOtRxbpR3aO6AaRMIudNfoN5I8pAiteyMCnyXuSBirDmZOZH CaaKBDhXioER4k5iva5FSNYiTVD20oC9MJ836sV7DA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvhedruddtfedggedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhephffktgggufffjgevvfhfofesrgdtmherhhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepnfgrfihr vghntggvucfuthgvfigrrhhtuceoshhtvgifrghrthesshgvrhhishhsrgdrtghomheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgffffeegheevgfeuteegieefjeejieehueehvdekhefhvdeu vdegudehheeigfevnecuffhomhgrihhnpegrtghmrdhorhhgpdgsihhtshgrvhgvrhhsrd horhhgpdhtrhgrihhlihhnghdqvggughgvrdgtohhmpdgrrhgthhhivhgvrdhorhhgpdhh ohgrrdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrh homhepshhtvgifrghrthesshgvrhhishhsrgdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: ibf61458d:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 20:59:56 -0500 (EST) From: Lawrence Stewart Message-Id: <505BAA50-7298-4AC5-A433-C3D48936A133@serissa.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_59F0FF3C-C19B-441C-9656-D4599E5926D1" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.1\)) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2023 20:59:56 -0500 In-Reply-To: To: ron minnich References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.1) Message-ID-Hash: YWYTU5KZFP75LA6VNQQIKYKQ2QF4JSIX X-Message-ID-Hash: YWYTU5KZFP75LA6VNQQIKYKQ2QF4JSIX X-MailFrom: stewart@serissa.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Burroughs funded $30,000 for a port to E-mode stack machine in 1983! List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --Apple-Mail=_59F0FF3C-C19B-441C-9656-D4599E5926D1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I rise to defend the honor of ECL. I had designed with TTL through = college and the =E2=80=9880s: network cards, graphics controllers, the = Etherphone, the CPU modules for the Firefly MicroVAX multiprocessor, and = so forth. My early designs were SSI and later ones PAL based mostly = (Like in Soul of the New Machine). In 1990 or 1991 Digital Systems = Research Center started work on the Alpha Demonstration Unit, intended = for software porting. The Alpha EV-3 and EV-4 were I/O compatible with = either TTL or ECL levels, so we chose ECL 100K with some of the new = ECLinPS stuff and even some custom Gallium Arsenide address drivers for = the DRAM arrays. This all let the system run at 100 MHz, to keep up = with the 100 or 200 MHz Alphas. The short version is that if you can afford the power, ECL is . = Every wire is a transmission line. Every signal is terminated. Almost = every part (except the 5 NS cache rams) has complementary outputs. = What=E2=80=99s not to like about 350 ps NOR gates? The signal integrity = alone makes it worthwhile. The CACM paper is at = https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/151220.151225 = but the Digital Technical = Journal version is on Bitsavers at = http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dtj/dtj_v04-04_1992.pdf = Naturally all the production systems were TTL and CMOS, but that ECL = stuff was great fun. We had a local welding shop make 18=E2=80=9D = cables for the 400 Amps of -4.5v and 200 Amps of -2v terminator power. = They said =E2=80=9Cwhat kind of a welder is this for anyway? The Unix angle, such as it is, is that the ADU ran OSF-1 and Alpha VMS = on different subsets of the CPU and memory boards. = Not a hypervisor, but a hard partitioning of resources. There was = enough I/O stuff to run three =E2=80=9Ccomputers=E2=80=9D I think. Earlier I had been a user of the Xerox Dorado, which was 16 MHz ECL = (probably MECL) in the early 80=E2=80=99s. It made a wonderful personal = computer :). Ken Pier=E2=80=99s retrospective at = http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/parc/techReports/ISL-83-1_A_R= etrospective_on_the_Dorado_A_High-Performance_Personal_Computer.pdf = = talks a bit about debugging on page 32. The Dorado had JTAG like scan = logic threaded through it, which made debugging and repair of such a = complex beast possible. IIRC quite a lot of work went into the control = software for the scan logic, devoting an Alto to having a decent UI for = it. -Larry > On 2023, Jan 15, at 7:51 PM, ron minnich wrote: >=20 > = https://web.archive.org/web/20130521183231/http://jack.hoa.org/hoajaa/Burr= Main.html = >=20 > has the burroughs info. >=20 > On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 11:09 AM ron minnich > wrote: > I just stumbled across an old letter, from a VP of Burroughs to me and = Steve Bartels, authorizing $30,000 for a port of Unix to the E-mode = stack machine. I had forgotten getting it. >=20 > Burroughs was famed for its stack machines. E-mode was a kind of last = gasp attempt to save the stack architecture, which failed as far as I = know, see this table: > http://jack.hoa.org/hoajaa/Burr126b.html = >=20 > I worked as a hardware engineer on the A15. I also had been a Unix = user for 7 years at that point and kept pointing out how awful the = Burroughs CANDE time-sharing system was, and how much better Unix was. = At some point I guess they asked me to put up or shut up. I got that = money, and left Burroughs a week later for grad school.=20 >=20 > Funny note: A15 was Motorola ECL (MECL), and ran at 16 Mhz., = considered fast at that time. We used a technique called "stored logic" = which was, believe it or not, using MECL RAM to map logic inputs to = outputs, i.e. implement combinational logic with SRAM. Kind of nuts, but = it worked at the time. We also used a precursor of JTAG to scan it in. = Those of you who know JTAG have some idea of how fun this had to be. >=20 > One side effect of working with MECL is you realized just how well = designed the TI 7400 SSI/MSI parts were ... MECL always just felt like = an awkward family to design with.=20 >=20 > Another funny story, pointing to what was about to happen to = Burroughs. We had an app that ran for hours on the stack machine. We = quick ported it to a VAX, started it up, and headed out to lunch -- = "this will take a while, let's go eat." We got to the front door and: = "Oh, wait, let me hop back into the office,I forgot my jacket". And, = noticed, the program was done in ... about 3 minutes. Not 8 hours.=20 >=20 > That's when we knew it was game over for Burroughs.=20 >=20 > If a picture of this letter would be useful in some archive somewhere, = let me know, I can send it. >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_59F0FF3C-C19B-441C-9656-D4599E5926D1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = rise to defend the honor of ECL.  I had designed with TTL through = college and the =E2=80=9880s: network cards, graphics controllers, the = Etherphone, the CPU modules for the Firefly MicroVAX multiprocessor, and = so forth.  My early designs were SSI and later ones PAL based = mostly (Like in Soul of the New Machine).  In 1990 or 1991 Digital = Systems Research Center started work on the Alpha Demonstration Unit, = intended for software porting.  The Alpha EV-3 and EV-4 were I/O = compatible with either TTL or ECL levels, so we chose ECL 100K with some = of the new ECLinPS stuff and even some custom Gallium Arsenide address = drivers for the DRAM arrays.  This all let the system run at 100 = MHz, to keep up with the 100 or 200 MHz Alphas.

The short version is that if you can = afford the power, ECL is <awesome>.  Every wire is a = transmission line. Every signal is terminated. Almost every part (except = the 5 NS cache rams) has complementary outputs.  What=E2=80=99s not = to like about 350 ps NOR gates? The signal integrity alone makes it = worthwhile. The CACM paper is at https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/151220.151225 but the = Digital Technical Journal version is on Bitsavers at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dtj/dtj_v04-04_1992.pdf

Naturally all = the production systems were TTL and CMOS, but that ECL stuff was great = fun.  We had a local welding shop make 18=E2=80=9D cables for the = 400 Amps of -4.5v and 200 Amps of -2v terminator power.  They said = =E2=80=9Cwhat kind of a welder is this for anyway?

The Unix angle, such as = it is, is that the ADU ran OSF-1 and Alpha VMS <at the same time> = on different subsets of the CPU and memory boards.  Not a = hypervisor, but a hard partitioning of resources.  There was enough = I/O stuff to run three =E2=80=9Ccomputers=E2=80=9D I think.

Earlier I had been a = user of the Xerox Dorado, which was 16 MHz ECL (probably MECL) in the = early 80=E2=80=99s.  It made a wonderful personal computer :). =  Ken Pier=E2=80=99s retrospective at http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/parc/techReports/I= SL-83-1_A_Retrospective_on_the_Dorado_A_High-Performance_Personal_Computer= .pdf talks a bit about debugging on page 32.  The Dorado = had JTAG like scan logic threaded through it, which made debugging and = repair of such a complex beast possible.  IIRC quite a lot of work = went into the control software for the scan logic, devoting an Alto to = having a decent UI for it.

-Larry

On 2023, Jan 15, at 7:51 PM, ron minnich = <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote:

https://web.archive.org/web/20130521183231/http://jack.hoa.org/= hoajaa/BurrMain.html

has the burroughs = info.

On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 11:09 AM ron = minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote:
I just = stumbled across an old letter, from a VP of Burroughs to me and Steve = Bartels, authorizing $30,000 for a port of Unix to the E-mode stack = machine. I had forgotten getting it.

Burroughs was famed for its stack = machines. E-mode was a kind of last gasp attempt to save the stack = architecture, which failed as far as I know, see this table:
http://jack.hoa.org/hoajaa/Burr126b.html

I = worked as a hardware engineer on the A15. I also had been a Unix user = for 7 years at that point and kept pointing out how awful the Burroughs = CANDE time-sharing system was, and how much better Unix was. At some = point I guess they asked me to put up or shut up. I got that money, and = left Burroughs a week later for grad school. 

Funny note: A15 was = Motorola ECL (MECL), and ran at 16 Mhz., considered fast at that = time.  We used a technique called "stored logic" which was, believe = it or not, using MECL RAM to map logic inputs to outputs, i.e. implement = combinational logic with SRAM. Kind of nuts, but it worked at the time. = We also used a precursor of JTAG to scan it in. Those of you who know = JTAG have some idea of how fun this had to be.

One side effect of working with MECL is = you realized just how well designed the TI 7400 SSI/MSI parts were ... = MECL always just felt like an awkward family to design = with. 

Another funny story, pointing to what was about to happen to = Burroughs. We had an app that ran for hours on the stack machine. We = quick ported it to a VAX, started it up, and headed out to lunch -- = "this will take a while, let's go eat." We got to the front door and: = "Oh, wait, let me hop back into the office,I  forgot my = jacket". And, noticed, the program was done in ... about 3 minutes. Not = 8 hours. 

That's when we knew it was game over for = Burroughs. 

If a picture of this letter would be useful in some archive = somewhere, let me know, I can send it.



= --Apple-Mail=_59F0FF3C-C19B-441C-9656-D4599E5926D1--