From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 10215 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2022 18:25:09 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 10 Aug 2022 18:25:09 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D27840D59; Thu, 11 Aug 2022 04:24:33 +1000 (AEST) Received: from smtp4.via.net (smtp4.via.net [209.81.0.254]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CE124012F for ; Thu, 11 Aug 2022 04:24:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail.via.net (mail.via.net [157.22.3.34]) by smtp4.via.net (8.15.2/8.14.1-VIANET) with ESMTPS id 27AIOK3F024563 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Aug 2022 11:24:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.103.1 at smtp4.via.net Received: from smtpclient.apple ([209.81.2.65]) by mail.via.net (8.15.2/8.14.1-VIANET) with ESMTP id 27AIOJRC017150; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 11:24:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.103.1 at mail.via.net From: joe mcguckin Message-Id: <55D3A193-2CD3-4876-9D43-65F3D6FEAC86@via.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_121146D9-A2EF-4F77-A296-C646C70F45A3" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2022 11:24:09 -0700 In-Reply-To: <202208101737.27AHbupN011923@freefriends.org> To: Aharon Robbins References: <202208101505.27AF5Ko7020961@freefriends.org> <20220810171417.GY21168@mcvoy.com> <202208101737.27AHbupN011923@freefriends.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (smtp4.via.net [209.81.0.254]); Wed, 10 Aug 2022 11:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID-Hash: FP55N6PHSKMLXBYMA2YUJNFLEAJ4ZTRW X-Message-ID-Hash: FP55N6PHSKMLXBYMA2YUJNFLEAJ4ZTRW X-MailFrom: joe@via.net X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org, douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: SNOBOL and RATSNO List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --Apple-Mail=_121146D9-A2EF-4F77-A296-C646C70F45A3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I used to work for a computer manufacturer that was nearly dead - lots = of cubicles piled full of junk. The reference manuals had these very = nice diagrams of the=20 computer boards detailing the connectors on the board edges. Imagine my = surprise when I discovered all the artwork was PIC generated=E2=80=A6 Joe Joe McGuckin ViaNet Communications joe@via.net 650-207-0372 cell 650-213-1302 office 650-969-2124 fax > On Aug 10, 2022, at 10:37 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote: >=20 > Oh, I'm not arguing with any of this. I'm merely noting that > you are unusual in your ability to easily visualize pic results > from looking at the code. >=20 > Arnold >=20 > Larry McVoy wrote: >=20 >> Well, I stand behind my comments. Take a look at what xfig(1)=20 >> produces and contrast that with even an average pic(1) source >> file. You can't see what xfig is saying but you can easily see >> what pic is saying. >>=20 >> Maybe people just haven't written much pic, but what you can do >> with it, and see without rendering it, is pretty amazing. >>=20 >> I got James Clark to add the 'i'th concept so you could do for >> loops to lay out elements and I wrote a pic script where you=20 >> could set variables like cpus, networks, disks and it would >> draw different configurations of a SPARCcluster. =20 >>=20 >> Pic is pretty neat, I find it easier to read than any of the >> other troff preprocessors. >>=20 >> On Wed, Aug 10, 2022 at 09:05:20AM -0600, arnold@skeeve.com wrote: >>> Hi All. >>>=20 >>> Douglas McIlroy wrote: >>>=20 >>>>> I've always believed that pic was so well designed >>>>> because it took a day to get the print out (back then), >>>>=20 >>>> I'm afraid this belief is urban legend. Credit for pic is due 100% = to >>>> Kernighan, not to the contemporary pace of computing practice. >>>=20 >>> I occassionally forward TUHS items (that I think are) of interest >>> to Brian. I have in the past forwarded one of Larry's "I like pic >>> because I can read the code and visualize the picture" emails to >>> him. He responded that he didn't work that way. :-) >>>=20 >>> Here, by permission, is his response to Larry's latest note of >>> that kind, which I think is also of more or less general interest: >>>=20 >>>> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2022 19:03:00 -0400 (EDT) >>>> From: Brian Kernighan >>>> To: arnold@skeeve.com >>>> Subject: Re: larry mcvoy on pic, again >>>>=20 >>>> I don't know that I would read too much into the development of >>>> Pic, though my memory is so dim that it would all be made up >>>> anyway. >>>>=20 >>>> One observation: with Yacc and Lex available, languages were a lot >>>> easier to implement; I had already done a troff preprocessor so >>>> that aspect was well in hand. And I was actually the owner of >>>> troff at the same time, so I could mix and match (e.g., the >>>> primitives for drawing lines). I think that "seeing the output" >>>> wasn't too hard, either because I could use the typesetter, or the >>>> Tectronix 4014 (?) for which there was a troff output emulator >>>> that I think I wrote. >>>>=20 >>>> The main issues as I recall were figuring out coordinate systems, >>>> since Pic had Y going positive as with conventional plotting, >>>> while troff had it going negative (down the page is higher Y >>>> values). >>>>=20 >>>> But it's all kind of fuzzy at this point. >>=20 >> --=20 >> --- >> Larry McVoy Retired to fishing = http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat --Apple-Mail=_121146D9-A2EF-4F77-A296-C646C70F45A3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = used to work for a computer manufacturer that was nearly dead - lots of = cubicles piled full of junk. The reference manuals had these very nice = diagrams of the 
computer boards detailing the = connectors on the board edges. Imagine my surprise when I discovered all = the artwork was PIC generated=E2=80=A6

Joe


Joe = McGuckin
ViaNet Communications

650-207-0372 cell
650-213-1302 = office
650-969-2124 fax



On Aug 10, 2022, at 10:37 AM, arnold@skeeve.com = wrote:

Oh, I'm not arguing with any of this. I'm merely noting = that
you are unusual in your ability to easily visualize = pic results
from looking at the code.

Arnold

Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

Well, I = stand behind my comments.  Take a look at what xfig(1)
produces and contrast that with even an average pic(1) = source
file.  You can't see what xfig is saying but = you can easily see
what pic is saying.

Maybe people just haven't written much pic, but what you can = do
with it, and see without rendering it, is pretty = amazing.

I got James Clark to add the 'i'th = concept so you could do for
loops to lay out elements and = I wrote a pic script where you
could set variables like = cpus, networks, disks and it would
draw different = configurations of a SPARCcluster.  

Pic = is pretty neat, I find it easier to read than any of the
other troff preprocessors.

On = Wed, Aug 10, 2022 at 09:05:20AM -0600, arnold@skeeve.com = wrote:
Hi All.

Douglas McIlroy <douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote:

I've always believed that pic was so well designed
because it took a day to get the print out (back then),

I'm afraid this belief is urban = legend. Credit for pic is due 100% to
Kernighan, not to = the contemporary pace of computing practice.

I occassionally forward TUHS = items (that I think are) of interest
to Brian.  I = have in the past forwarded one of Larry's "I like pic
because I can read the code and visualize the picture" emails = to
him.  He responded that he didn't work that way. = :-)

Here, by permission, is his response to = Larry's latest note of
that kind, which I think is also of = more or less general interest:

Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2022 19:03:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Kernighan <bwk@cs.princeton.edu>
To: arnold@skeeve.com
Subject: Re: larry mcvoy on pic, again

I don't know that I would read too much into the development = of
Pic, though my memory is so dim that it would all be = made up
anyway.

One = observation: with Yacc and Lex available, languages were a lot
easier to implement; I had already done a troff preprocessor = so
that aspect was well in hand.  And I was actually = the owner of
troff at the same time, so I could mix and = match (e.g., the
primitives for drawing lines).  I = think that "seeing the output"
wasn't too hard, either = because I could use the typesetter, or the
Tectronix 4014 = (?) for which there was a troff output emulator
that I = think I wrote.

The main issues as I recall = were figuring out coordinate systems,
since Pic had Y = going positive as with conventional plotting,
while troff = had it going negative (down the page is higher Y
values).
But it's all kind of fuzzy at this point.

--
---
Larry McVoy =           Retired to = fishing          http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat

= --Apple-Mail=_121146D9-A2EF-4F77-A296-C646C70F45A3--