From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 27951 invoked from network); 17 Sep 2021 00:01:16 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 17 Sep 2021 00:01:16 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 5DB759CAC0; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:01:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8F739CAB3; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:00:55 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=pobox.com header.i=@pobox.com header.b="H8cOjjBb"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 4633F9CAB3; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:00:54 +1000 (AEST) X-Greylist: delayed 378 seconds by postgrey-1.36 at minnie.tuhs.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:00:53 AEST Received: from sasl.smtp.pobox.com (pb-sasl20.pobox.com [173.228.157.48]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C1FC9CAB2 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:00:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: from sasl.smtp.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-sasl20.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AFD9A777C; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:54:33 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=pobox.com; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=sasl; bh= ZUUe58BVTNMeguVLj+OhJPhH58bgiWDfkIBNn9GUKs4=; b=H8cOjjBbA66bM2tE u+iqC2Gc/CEu9rB90eRACBw1AsHl0m8zYfgZUEvipEQyVKMr3pBPztj/erEHsk0C xcTlTVflmMSJRkG9Mw3k/8B3sM82yfr8GeGK5A+jPs4UoLYbBDMqKwh1FjXdf6Vj 5IVrsOOeGllnjB0JIk1u/QxU7F0= Received: from pb-sasl20.sea.icgroup.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-sasl20.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 564B6A777B; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:54:33 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) Received: from [192.168.86.129] (unknown [203.132.93.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pb-sasl20.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 14CB0A777A; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:54:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: David Arnold In-Reply-To: <20210916194103.GK26820@mcvoy.com> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:54:26 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <58BCBB10-A303-41C0-8620-992B107786BB@pobox.com> References: <202109161934.18GJYFsl881498@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20210916194103.GK26820@mcvoy.com> To: Larry McVoy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-Pobox-Relay-ID: 6F4150EC-1749-11EC-90E0-B17D3006E672-29049682!pb-sasl20.pobox.com Subject: Re: [TUHS] ATC/OSDI'21 joint keynote: It's Time for Operating Systems to Rediscover Hardware (Timothy Roscoe) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" > On 17 Sep 2021, at 05:41, Larry McVoy wrote: <=E2=80=A6> > I think it is that the newer kids are less willing to understand = stuff. > So they build something on top that they understand. I agree that = they > will hit problems and likely build "safe deposit boxes" because the > containers are "too complex=E2=80=9D. Writing a new OS in the 70s or even early 80s meant that you had to = replace or port a compiler toolchain, an editor, an email client, a news = reader, an IRC client, a couple of simple games, and whatever = applications your university/research lab needed to justify its grant = money. It was a chunk of work, but it was surmountable by a small team = or even a dedicated individual. It was demonstrably possible to build = your own machine from CPU upward within a reasonable timeframe (eg. = Wirth=E2=80=99s Oberon). It=E2=80=99s still possible (and perhaps even easier) to do that today, = but no-one=E2=80=99s really happy with an OS that only provides a = handful of applications. In particular, as has been widely stated, a = modern web browser is orders of magnitude more work than an OS. But = expectations for every type of application have moved on, and a modern = editor, chat/messaging app, or game is also likely orders of magnitude = more complex and feature-rich than what was once acceptable. For a while, it was possible to have a =E2=80=9CPOSIX emulation=E2=80=9D = module/layer/whatever (was Mach the first to go this route?) as a = shortcut to this but the breadth of the APIs needed to run, eg. = Chrome/ium is again orders of magnitude more work than what was needed = to port vi/emacs/rn/etc. And it=E2=80=99s not just those applications: to have your new OS be = useful, you need to support a dozen languages, a hundred protocols, = thousands of libraries =E2=80=A6 a vast range of stuff that would take = years, perhaps decades, to port over or reinvent in your new paradigm. The idea that you=E2=80=99d turn your back on the accumulated value of = 50 years of countless people=E2=80=99s work because your set of system = calls is slightly better than the one you=E2=80=99ve got now =E2=80=A6 = that=E2=80=99s a very, very big call. So I think the notion that =E2=80=9Cthe kids=E2=80=9D are less willing = to understand, or to drill deep, is doing them a disservice. They do = understand, and they (mostly) make the choice to leverage that body of = work rather than embark on the futility of starting afresh. d