From: toby@telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Subject: [TUHS] Why Pascal is Not My Favorite Programming Language - Unearthed!
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2017 11:00:17 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <5b2078bb-9231-9ac2-ce28-035bed01b8cb@telegraphics.com.au> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W5FPUihmWh8p8sCKb8k57YvM=tJJQzxWaWJid84yXG-0w@mail.gmail.com>
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On 2017-08-31 10:38 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au
> <mailto:toby at telegraphics.com.au>> wrote:
> [snip]
>
> > But the problem was that in those days, because Wirth had designed it
> > for complete small student programs, it was hard to write large real
> > programs (as Brian points). So people fixed it and every fixed it
> > differently. Pascal was hardly standardized. ...
> >
> > And this was the root of the real problem.
> >
> > You could not write “real” programs in it and really make them run on
> > actual systems. Brian was writing that paper, after an exercise in
>
>
> Professor Knuth seemed to manage OK, writing TeX and METAFONT in Pascal
> (using his literate programming toolset, but that did not extend the
> language much).
>
>
> To be fair, I think that Knuth originally wrote both TeX and METAFONT in
> the SAIL language for the PDP-10. He switched to Pascal (again on the
> PDP-10) later.
>
> I've often wondered to what extent (natural) language shapes thought;
> for instance, to what extent does grammatical gender influence
> patriarchy or matriarchy of the society that speaks that language, etc.
> If some thought is relatively harder to express in a given language,
> will less attention be given to areas associated with that thought? It
> is my limited understanding that linguists and social scientists have
> studied this and seen a positive correlation between language and
> culture/society (I don't know if it's causal).
>
> But if we go out on a branch and assume that it *is* causal for a
> moment, it naturally raises the question: is the same true of other
> types of languages? How about programming languages or mathematical
> notations (or other similar domain specific languages)?
>
> I have long suspected that it is true of programming. ...
This is why, as our ideas grow in sophistication, our languages must
also. I think the history of mathematical notation is a perfect example.
Lots of people are on this wavelength, e.g. this presentation:
Metaphors We Compute By, Alvaro Videla
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okUmXP1vAic&feature=youtu.be
33 minutes + Q&A
"The main thesis of Lakoff... [is that metaphors] permeate all of the
language, furthermore they dictate in a way how we live, how we see the
world comes from the metaphors ... How our conceptual system is built.
... A metaphor can thus be used to identify a structure in a domain that
would not have been discovered otherwise.
... Master the art of meaning amplication."
This talk also mentions Dr Barbara Liskov's paper, "Programming with
Abstract Data Types":
"The motivation behind the work in very-high-level languages is to
ease the programming task by providing the programmer with a language
containing primitives or abstractions suitable to his problem area. The
programmer is then able to spend his effort in the right place..."
Finally, a favourite quote:
"Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally
for machines to execute" -- Hal Abelson
https://twitter.com/old_sound/status/903919515884544000
--Toby
>
> - Dan C.
>
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2017-09-02 15:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 68+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2017-08-30 12:34 arnold
2017-08-30 14:13 ` Eric Wayte
2017-08-30 14:30 ` Michael Kjörling
2017-08-30 14:43 ` Eric Wayte
2017-08-30 17:10 ` Mutiny
2017-08-30 22:33 ` Michael Parson
2017-08-31 0:55 ` Nemo
2017-08-31 13:29 ` arnold
2017-08-31 18:24 ` Nemo
2017-09-03 0:56 ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-03 12:07 ` arnold
2017-09-03 22:03 ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-04 12:12 ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2017-08-31 1:13 ` Bakul Shah
2017-08-31 14:48 ` Larry McVoy
2017-08-31 15:26 ` Eric Wayte
2017-08-31 16:12 ` Warner Losh
2017-08-31 17:51 ` Larry McVoy
2017-08-31 18:40 ` Clem Cole
2017-08-31 19:25 ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2017-09-01 1:57 ` Nemo
2017-09-01 14:17 ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2017-09-01 14:28 ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-01 14:48 ` William Cheswick
2017-09-01 15:15 ` Clem Cole
2017-09-01 15:47 ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-01 16:21 ` Nevin Liber
2017-09-01 16:34 ` Dan Cross
2017-09-02 0:24 ` Dave Horsfall
2017-08-31 19:47 ` Toby Thain
2017-08-31 20:37 ` William Cheswick
2017-08-31 20:51 ` Clem Cole
2017-09-01 0:52 ` Bakul Shah
2017-08-31 21:46 ` Larry McVoy
2017-08-31 21:59 ` Arthur Krewat
2017-08-31 22:08 ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-01 1:11 ` Steve Johnson
2017-09-01 0:57 ` David Arnold
2017-09-01 1:22 ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-01 1:26 ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-01 1:51 ` Kurt H Maier
2017-09-01 2:22 ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-01 2:27 ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-01 2:58 ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-01 3:12 ` Dan Cross
2017-09-01 2:51 ` Dan Cross
2017-08-31 20:37 ` Clem Cole
2017-08-31 21:26 ` Toby Thain
2017-09-01 2:38 ` Dan Cross
2017-09-01 3:59 ` Toby Thain
2017-09-01 15:57 ` Dan Cross
2017-09-01 16:08 ` Toby Thain
2017-09-01 18:15 ` [TUHS] Future Languages (was Pascal not Favorite...) Steve Johnson
2017-09-01 18:43 ` ron minnich
2017-09-01 23:33 ` Chris Torek
2017-09-04 20:55 ` ron minnich
2017-09-01 20:42 ` Clem Cole
2017-09-04 20:44 ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-01 13:46 ` [TUHS] Why Pascal is Not My Favorite Programming Language - Unearthed! Clem Cole
2017-09-01 14:43 ` Toby Thain
2017-09-01 15:14 ` Clem Cole
2017-09-01 16:22 ` Dan Cross
2017-09-01 19:07 ` Toby Thain
2017-09-02 13:25 ` Dan Cross
2017-09-02 15:00 ` Toby Thain [this message]
2017-09-02 15:16 Diomidis Spinellis
2017-09-02 19:53 ` Toby Thain
2017-09-03 14:48 Norman Wilson
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