From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 6b3abcab for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2019 01:12:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 13C889BF72; Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:12:35 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 582E79BD9B; Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:12:23 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 485109BD9B; Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:12:22 +1000 (AEST) X-Greylist: delayed 3372 seconds by postgrey-1.36 at minnie.tuhs.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:12:21 AEST Received: from knecht.neophilic.com (knecht.neophilic.com [70.36.157.234]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E22C49BD84 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:12:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: from rieux.neophilic.com (rieux.neophilic.com [10.0.2.35]) (authenticated bits=0) by knecht.neophilic.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x5R0G7K0013313 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 26 Jun 2019 17:16:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tuhs@eric.allman.name) To: "tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org" References: <8D0B5B0D-9956-47D7-8D36-1729BB1E1DA9@eschatologist.net> <5df8c6f6-2768-4bfb-9c47-3345098078a7@PU1APC01FT048.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com> <20190625000630.GA7655@mcvoy.com> <20190625003120.GA28608@mit.edu> <20190625004523.GB7655@mcvoy.com> <20190625005528.GA11929@wopr> <20190625041806.GL7655@mcvoy.com> <20190626231926.EF38A156E40C@mail.bitblocks.com> From: tuhs@eric.allman.name Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=tuhs@eric.allman.name; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQGiBDu8yuARBADuTa8bzS4Er9urm7XPu5vtrRRJMoY2/mvuQeRHpvHF6ncUF2ZC9nAkIYb6 Upl9UOCZxG6uwxzzzSnxeHg7aAVY/TEN4FukuN1X1aGvol/V8PM1nV5vyLFk/Tf/Q/yoN/w8 tK9dp/O2EflChD/i/J9vWIppg3rVKK6FPW4CuqqaiwCg/ytVY7yJHZCCrhRioLBtKaCGUB0D /20dzSKBUdOxSvfg3NKt7gojiqulxmNbRkkjuhbKMRiQ0jjt16L9h+zlS1mXNT91/Ds08WtF 99Z3YffTflcbU9uBea6AJhzIaYVHwCJsNyP+rGE+9CM1YZpwm5k/ZBr7iOr0tkI1o39JRg75 Ih18gnPVXovH+VhsXRGtxTqn7+dmBADmmsHL8u/qbBWKIC3TYpXH8rJBIJXHwvOrI4HbEvAh xzD/Zy6yGMgiTZ8quGHzmdm1kD53s/TVcgEo/XWlgy9Cr05tU16UGEx/Q38K4IetCTGjhOvY a0+I012p5ZK1KqnIjUuCAy7VgGy75sBPKzYeUjJ1yAO7+EMXaZP6Olejn7QiRXJpYyBQLiBB bGxtYW4gPGVyaWNAU2VuZG1haWwuQ09NPohOBBARAgAOBAsDAQICGQEFAju8yuEACgkQMRmA Uc8aTSwR/gCfcq/84OdF6e6hkUQQbVFPqsxS6N0An13gLkFVkPJrMs+5PK5ogl0k7yW8uQIN BDu8yuAQCAD2Qle3CH8IF3KiutapQvMF6PlTETlPtvFuuUs4INoBp1ajFOmPQFXz0AfGy0Op lK33TGSGSfgMg71l6RfUodNQ+PVZX9x2Uk89PY3bzpnhV5JZzf24rnRPxfx2vIPFRzBhznzJ Zv8V+bv9kV7HAarTW56NoKVyOtQa8L9GAFgr5fSI/VhOSdvNILSd5JEHNmszbDgNRR0PfIiz HHxbLY7288kjwEPwpVsYjY67VYy4XTjTNP18F1dDox0YbN4zISy1Kv884bEpQBgRjXyEpwpy 1obEAxnIByl6ypUM2Zafq9AKUJsCRtMIPWakXUGfnHy9iUsiGSa6q6Jew1XpMgs7AAICB/0d vsPKvMXcKls8RHeYcleBEQEgXovGaTNo8R3ZVjPcDUKcQbfWMP8w5qJKf36hvBsjEgfVJW7r lKUtA82H66ivnAgAqWZMgfROKSHwaTFScFWLR8lG5e7sd2OZ4xqDe6+BpYlmJocR2riughz8 B7p1RhINqpfslZ0QEdB/fscntjoBvohtjG80BwB/tB6gnWHsjd9Cv6QfiNYOzAWaQo+BmcFq kmTYwrXFFNWHjOWfCUyjg2kqztl0DHjmZ7AzgHgTEnPku2TlMXwaGbHZKDOwLP/dteywinK6 SEOW2HrQBMxkMQGEZWtOH6hjszJtkqn+V4O0c92d4FjaQhvleSL7iD8DBRg7vMrgMRmAUc8a TSwRAklEAJ44uotW5aUoI1uMu94xIkLeCI6iWACg1IbChgU5suH4a+T68hfH8Jwa140= Message-ID: <5db5af7f-d11b-2d87-edd9-fa5aae855fb5@neophilic.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 17:16:07 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190626231926.EF38A156E40C@mail.bitblocks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [TUHS] Craft vs Research (Re: CMU Mach sources? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" I think Larry is right, but also wrong. I think I can speak from experience. The goal of research is not to produce consumer-ready code, but to explore ideas. Nasty things sometimes happen in that environment. But that doesn't mean that code doesn't have to work. My introduction to coding on a research project was INGRES, at the time the competitor to System R (now DB/2, better known as "anything SQL") from IBM Research. By the very nature of the problem, the main complaint was that "Relational Databases Cannot Work" --- so proving that they could was a major part of the research agenda. At one point (pre-commercial) INGRES stored the telecom wiring diagram of New York City. It wasn't always a pleasant experience, but we learned a lot, mostly happy, most of the time. A lot of our motivation was because real people were using our code to do real work. Had we hung them out in the wind to dry, we wouldn't have gotten that feedback, and frankly I think RDBMS wouldn't have progressed so far and so fast. But when I left INGRES I talked with Mike Stonebraker, who asked me where I thought the project should be going. At that point I thought it was clear that the research objectives had been satisfied, and there was the beginnings of a commercial company to move it forward, so I advised that the old code base (which at that point I had written or substantially modified well over 50%) should be abandoned. Do a new system from scratch, in any language, (and I quote) "even in LISP if that's the right decision." Unfortunately the first version of Postgres was written in LISP --- my breed of humor was apparently unappreciated at that time. But from a research perspective the goal was no longer to produce something that actually worked in the real world, but to explore new ideas, including bad ones. I wasn't involved with Postgres personally, but I think Larry's analysis was essentially correct as I know it. I was extraordinarily lucky to have ended up at Berkeley in the mid-70s when UNIX was just becoming a "thing", and I can assure you that while there were a lot of people who just wanted to get their degrees, there was also a large cadre wanting to produce good stuff that could make peoples' lives better. eric