From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.3 required=5.0 tests=FROM_FMBLA_NEWDOM14, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, MIME_HTML_ONLY,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id c922b775 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 18:18:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 57A6593D45; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 04:18:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71D7E93D1B; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 04:18:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id E8A5293D1B; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 04:18:03 +1000 (AEST) X-Greylist: delayed 305 seconds by postgrey-1.36 at minnie.tuhs.org; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 04:18:03 AEST Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19A7A93D09 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 04:18:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: from oxbaltgw11.schlund.de ([172.19.246.17]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [213.165.67.99]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MC0HF-1j9fQm2GOj-00CNKO; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 19:12:53 +0100 Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 18:12:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Emile Bye To: Earl Baugh , Larry McVoy Message-ID: <615399517.295857.1582135972871@email.ionos.co.uk> In-Reply-To: References: <202002171520.01HFKqKi026749@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> <4d252035b323b7583c5760c952d1982c@firemail.de> <202002171839.01HId8FT1358073@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <202002180017.01I0HI0I1415945@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20200219044444.GO30841@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.1-Rev26 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:wkgGJ0hw81WZUQUjvrGmOvVp0Dpl9il4ACCBDvV/SRBMVxXAdG7 jHRDKXCOokABI5emqi5ZyP4oOMnhgX8dobERM8pKLVcPxt+TT+4USAeFITIank71XuUI+J8 uixQh63BdlZkBICnhBJ3zf+4C3coCTG1MxTU3hvOwJR3gpV91PcgyY09QsnDlZtPVEHkv76 1nABtSjeDNHbA/K+j0nWg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:h8dsAOt8Qgo=:Mn0HxCHS8e1hSMvzM721cJ 4Q0pFn+2usKU+fu2gCObOtkW3KyfyO2RP9mUtWoMz8xlvj6UqKwKUSNP//5ZGw+PGnTTads6s wKMrC6zTe7Qa+lOGR2ZPfYgSJFLZSYPZurX5eBtt71h/FSFMroa249m5RjDGg1sV0MmplIt4x MYMoPGIoVyuIyyqKyquh6CwRIWGRFvpwFj7IGvhmY9qsnfysNsCPu1P8Qp0HAG1qzMG5R3BBk /ULO2+MfheKrOPXhObLycu4750I067G8KZeqZKc3VujZqstheS5+qqadgd4ny2AyarmF7l7T6 W8PaFgxnHhMkF4f1QthPOIDxIaFfepX3grrKDvwoCAAishyxdysnzVGAUO0GzITybenMed5Zs Gqovnz6+zGHV9z++X7Wjo8o97CWNVCBoHzTI3GjMKLy0X5vRiBdl7gJlFi1DdIf+ZyxZU8/PU u1O2aLoRGUvTt90EOVollukC1km55PFXf4Ephk0v4xQZ2ZWnyV8kJXFoWp1QpTjdRQGwaQ6Wg H+6PqvmsWfdWqGLSizC9xRY/dotRxd6JdjNLO1siDlR5t/eZfIJly/qH29qedeXNgM7XNy7aM 4PDNHTlSC3Re0Rump7S6qfjg8X3iaYs7MEXjL6X4PRLuVk8yw3p5NXPpepKUxwWAQ8bLBeABZ aajH6p3biw5wJUhEY3oY4Rp12V8cwwZi0S3n3tnIxJFQSgK87qX3GlsUcCT+mh/U4CUMwK72p H5Ib4uoudsNV5OzYmcndLN5S94Rwxf/WK28I2ZcxhezHmNInHMBcj4SAgcimzAQprAnyt2mxQ +ATvnKZ4smQ45nB5NILf5/4QEWRPUQzFux13ZnEK3SsBectBrbuCHw9O6eamN2VJ5Dh78Aj Subject: Re: [TUHS] man Macro Package and pdfmark X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS"
Hello all,


I'm a new member of the list and have been reading quietly in the background.


Changing the subject slightly (it's kind of relevant)... Has anyone had a look at the new Solaris?  Apart from it using the Gnome 3 DE which is very sluggish, it's awful!

11.3 is the last version I'm going to install on anything I've got!  (My Sun Blade 2500 will have Solaris 10 though... much better...)

Rant over...

Apologies for being a little off-topic,



Emile 
On 19 February 2020 at 18:01 Earl Baugh <earl.baugh@gmail.com> wrote:

What was more frustrating to Sun users was that there WAS a compiler included in Sun OS,
but it went away with Solaris.  I saw a noticeable change in code available in binary form only after that.
At least until the GNU stuff got stable enough to use...

(I was a customer of MIke's when he first start Cygnus for support of the GNU compilers...
I was working in a secured facility and multiple times I spoke with him on the phone typing in patches
by hand -- as he relayed them -- because of the time and hassle it took to get a tape in with the patch...)

Earl


On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 11:45 PM Larry McVoy < lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 12:22:56PM -0800, Greg A. Woods wrote:
> At the times I referred to the lack of freely available AT&T source code
> was extremely limiting in how people viewed the availability of such
> "add-on" tools for Unix -- including the C compiler! 

This wasn't just an AT&T thing, Sun and SGI and everyone charged for their
C compiler.  I sort of get it, writing a good compiler is up there with
writing a good kernel in effort, not quite the same, but probably the
2nd hardest thing to do.  So the compiler people cost a lot, companies
wanted to get that cost back.

It was stupid.  Having a free compiler meant that more people would
write apps for your platform.   It should have been a loss leader.

> > For folks running binary only systems from Masscomp/Sun/DEC/HP/IBM and the
> > like, it is possible it was different.
>
> It was _very_ different.
>
> If you weren't out in the trenches of end-user Unix-based systems at the
> time it may not have been as obvious as to just how restrictive it was
> to have proprietary fee-based licensing of such add-on software.  Most
> end-users couldn't even pay their vendors for ditroff -- their vendors
> didn't want to have to license it from AT&T, even when they had
> advocates inside the companies (e.g. I did some work supporting software
> for a couple such vendors and was never able to convince them).  Some,
> as you mention, were all-in, but it wasn't until UNIX System V Release 4
> became more widely available that systems based on it were more likely
> to have ditroff, and sometimes (though much more rarely) the "new" dpost
> post-processor was also included.  I don't know if there were different
> licensing terms for SysVr4 or not.  Don't get me started on how hard it
> also was to get some end users to buy a C compiler too.

Yep, lived through this as well.  I fought with Sun to make more stuff
free for developers, it just didn't make sense to not do that but the
powers that were didn't get it.

One thing that Sun did do, probably in spite of itself, was fund
Michael Tiemann's work on C++.  He worked out some deal that that
work would be open source and he pretty much made GNU C++ work
for some definition of work (C++ is a mess).