From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 8604 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2023 17:23:11 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 Mar 2023 17:23:11 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7334A43185; Thu, 2 Mar 2023 03:23:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: from ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl (ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl [195.121.94.186]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B202641C8B for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2023 03:22:57 +1000 (AEST) X-KPN-MessageId: 58990f29-b855-11ed-be37-00505699b430 Received: from smtp.kpnmail.nl (unknown [10.31.155.8]) by ewsoutbound.so.kpn.org (Halon) with ESMTPS id 58990f29-b855-11ed-be37-00505699b430; Wed, 01 Mar 2023 18:20:21 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=planet.nl; s=planet01; h=message-id:to:date:subject:mime-version:content-type:from; bh=M7V9HOJN7yAHzuMwo65MtJ7Kw9xxSi7oyW1AZ+8JGCw=; b=QtPBoILc2phAcdQTSssBT4FLg3bdN18uEW2ZLcVCZeUj2V8z6aLFd5GckUHNT0rWPYRnA5+1PG/Ns S6NzkY2Ii6kRv6BRMx2LCLiigVkHJu+9bd8tS173IzGp5hkodw7U5y9uUejCWRVO/pFCId17suhicj 1FQhAvueic+i+lS0= X-KPN-MID: 33|oumsgTCtYe/0LYucaN+8rpnR1+pFik3nm08ubnQlUfsQLsEF1Syju2TiPezrGKQ htpxgVDtd+Mji80uz4Gbv4OlqCbNBTrQ1dayhnQcq8lI= X-KPN-VerifiedSender: Yes X-CMASSUN: 33|SBjiWtPBmgw4lvSbGjVowhxElNJyVyHdk0nTa8FHjz7tfx5L7dDJ0Q5yOd0xmYs qwHs3jHlMcyLxOqtSSB8YlQ== X-Originating-IP: 46.253.188.28 Received: from smtpclient.apple (46-253-188-28.dynamic.monzoon.net [46.253.188.28]) by smtp.kpnmail.nl (Halon) with ESMTPSA id b11140e1-b855-11ed-9d31-00505699d6e5; Wed, 01 Mar 2023 18:22:51 +0100 (CET) From: Paul Ruizendaal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2023 18:22:49 +0100 References: <58626A0B-EF9C-4920-8E20-CE0C4210BA6A@planet.nl> <20230301165446.GB26409@mcvoy.com> To: "tuhs@tuhs.org" , Larry McVoy In-Reply-To: <20230301165446.GB26409@mcvoy.com> Message-Id: <616F16D5-5906-4E30-A421-FE8978CA9E8E@planet.nl> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Message-ID-Hash: LV7UAHZ5HC3J75XDDA3ZOD2FKBA7UE5S X-Message-ID-Hash: LV7UAHZ5HC3J75XDDA3ZOD2FKBA7UE5S X-MailFrom: pnr@planet.nl X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Early GUI on Linux List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: That is very quick. X10R3 came out in Feb 1986 (which I understand was = the first =E2=80=98outside' release) and by 1987 it was already the = dominant windowing system? Or did you mean that it had won prior to = 1991? > On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:54, Larry McVoy wrote: >=20 > It's worth pointing out that X had won before Linux. I was a = contractor > in 1987, worked on all sorts of different workstations with all sorts = of > vendor provided window systems, and the first thing I did was to bring > up my trusty X10R3 tape. > On Wed, Mar 01, 2023 at 05:39:48PM +0100, Paul Ruizendaal wrote: >> Thank you for highlighting that! >>=20 >> Several folks had already hinted at such, but your comments make = clear that by 1991 the X ecosystem had come out on top in a = winner-takes-all dynamic: people wanted X because that had the apps, and = the apps were for X because that was the most prevalent. >>=20 >> This also explains that MGR on Linux was so short-lived: although it = provided the terminal multiplexing that was the key use case, it did not = have the application ecosystem that was apparently already important = enough to motivate people to make X run on Linux very early in its = existence. I had always thought of those early X applications as little = more than gimmicks, but apparently they were more appreciated than I = thought. >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 27 Feb 2023, at 21:30, Dan Cross wrote: >>>=20 >>> On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 12:22 PM Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS = wrote: >>>> Thanks all for the insights. Let me attempt a summary. >>>>=20 >>>> What it boils down to is that X arrived on Linux very early, = because what the Linux hackers needed/wanted was a familiar terminal = multiplexer. >>>=20 >>> While that was literally true, I think it was a little more nuanced. >>> I'd perhaps put it that people wanted their familiar environments. >>> Many people were used to running a lot of xterms on their >>> workstations, of course, but there were other X applications people >>> used regularly.