From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 2391 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2020 19:19:11 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 15 Dec 2020 19:19:11 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 5ECA59C83B; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 05:19:08 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BA689C81F; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 05:18:29 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=iitbombay-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@iitbombay-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="P7ylE/53"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A364D9C81F; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 05:18:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pl1-f170.google.com (mail-pl1-f170.google.com [209.85.214.170]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 281FF9C81E for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 05:18:20 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pl1-f170.google.com with SMTP id x12so11089883plr.10 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:18:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=iitbombay-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references :to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=W2NKCuVKf3X4M+T+5pddgGSBFRiZd+1OCAUIMLiRcfs=; b=P7ylE/53UGLVgYd4arod8BYRh0a5x+Om9zOnNFH8Q9o1tj4vbQmlOp9k0lwGKLbqYB GSkt2+pX8G2oQdjD4E8yP1hTonjV2bRCZOeFanWY0SUD9pb4U9DIdXGxmaMgI0dF8O/K Nd47Nv+cbGVoGwKLAIlPubq0jGlfAtPQiuQbXhdTzLU+8iW2rQNErk43BXzuk3OQJ+xq Rx7eSAMf4ZZ8JIGcTPsQrE6uPQtXozg3qfK+ak5+VSfc0dOdWa273hHFEpqRJ+fjpqTF e8ej5hxcXG7m1ibz6fGD0vd3znjeO0aQfcWWoCNPExsgxGjb9/6AymUsC+RXIqWEGLGC EiAg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=W2NKCuVKf3X4M+T+5pddgGSBFRiZd+1OCAUIMLiRcfs=; b=HUXPGyjJ260uQqnPkcYd8BqIWwc6S7+eOx4FCZlKQGPCbPTNo6gfqlnRTSlCNgWDXV przuGyKoNdfZ0Koxup98gsNENV2AVOK7PUjUp4cxXdhdJKxfVqefw0IzedG4bfi4hb6r k9y0jjPIGKUwkzXsiqnCUXVz2dA72or9wb2YorKT+8jk8Ugu8xrTUyFVeTqtMaOPlT92 dL7GGWs3Oz3iLK+bwU5toHBDCVJzXoj3q9VvXIta5dokyQURtPOYuRVp+m0pt5Hux8/J dm3QM34QGjSkb55AdXm/4720qQsUFfvARK5RSM5ILrZmixZmqMguggckVmQokxjlRquD uQqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531zctb6xSv3acDlvN7ZRPoe7zGqL7FJNLl2V43pj4buw3RnhE67 SgF3zTAC/+iBCSct4sKzrk0fO8VCXZHJsw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJylv/9IV4FVR11cgQovZ9/otbbne0ZWk5hIQb9LbvhLeSNJdWYF+nrA2O0ubUkL71oKHyu6KA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9109:: with SMTP id k9mr356365pjo.178.1608059898895; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:18:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.113] (172-125-77-130.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net. [172.125.77.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q16sm25100725pfg.139.2020.12.15.11.18.17 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:18:18 -0800 (PST) From: Bakul Shah Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.40.0.2.32\)) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:18:16 -0800 References: To: TUHS@tuhs.org In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <64006DF6-FBE1-4F0E-9C45-64A5280FED50@iitbombay.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.40.0.2.32) Subject: Re: [TUHS] Knuth and Pascal (was "Were cron and at ...") X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" > On Dec 15, 2020, at 3:46 AM, M Douglas McIlroy = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOff topic, but too much fun to pass up. >=20 >>> You wrote your algorithm in Pascal, debugged it, and then rewrote it = in your favourite language (in my case, ALGOL-W). >=20 >> Now why didn't Don Knuth think of that for TeX? >=20 > I'm glad he didn't. He might have written it in Mix. Knuth once said > he didn't believe in higher-level languages. Of course he knew more > about them than anybody else and was CACM's associate editor for the > subject--like a minister who doesn't believe in God. >=20 > Doug Did he actually say that? In this delightful interview =20 https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/107413/oh332dk.pdf in response to a question about were there any giant steps in CS, he says the idea of Structured Programming is a giant step but those are few and far between. A number of times he comments on structured programming (as opposed to HLLs). About Go To and SP: "It is like the zero population growth movement: The goal isn=E2=80=99t really to have zero population growth; the goal is to improve people=E2=80=99s quality of life. But they substitute a quantitative = goal for the qualitative goal, and that=E2=80=99s like viewing structured programming as only a non-=E2=80=98Go To=E2=80=99 type of a program, = which is foolish, and I am sure Edsger didn=E2=80=99t mean it that way at all." He also mentions he wrote an Algol compiler for Burroughs during the summer of 1960. Knuth finished the first draft of what became TAOCP in 1966. Given that there were already many discussions about Algol X but no clarity and that he really did want people to understand what steps are needed and their cost, that is, get close to the computer, MIX made more sense (I'm glad it wasn't Fortran!). MIX wouldn't have made sense for TeX & METAFONT, which are in essence *recipes* made out of algorithmic ingredients and in effect he reimplemented these algorithms in Pascal.=