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[107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 41be03b00d2f7-6fede16a40fsm6097070a12.26.2024.06.16.22.41.43 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 16 Jun 2024 22:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <653E15D7-DD66-414C-94F3-A74B4EE3DD10@iitbombay.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8403828B-BA76-4FA2-B257-196F6381ECCB" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.600.62\)) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2024 22:41:32 -0700 In-Reply-To: To: ron minnich References: <20240617004816.C28BC18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20240617010532.GC12821@mcvoy.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.600.62) Message-ID-Hash: RXHA4MAQCKULPRK7OF6WFNEXW5XQPFSD X-Message-ID-Hash: RXHA4MAQCKULPRK7OF6WFNEXW5XQPFSD X-MailFrom: bakul@iitbombay.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Noel Chiappa , The Unix Heritage Society mailing list X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' The Register List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: From: Bakul Shah via TUHS Reply-To: Bakul Shah X-Spam: Yes --Apple-Mail=_8403828B-BA76-4FA2-B257-196F6381ECCB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Jun 16, 2024, at 8:57=E2=80=AFPM, ron minnich = wrote: >=20 > I'm curious, as to the original topic of this discussion: can anyone = justify systemd-homed and how it works? Does that even look like 0% of a = unix idea? I am not a fan of systemd (or linux) and don't follow their = excesses/adventures but I am not a fan of how BSD does initialization & = brings up services either. They don't quite get all the dependencies = right for all the possible combinations of devices etc. Its /etc/rc.d/* = system is pretty clunky -- I tend to think any time you are repeating = more or less the same boilerplate code in many files, something worth = abstracting is hiding in there. I like how launchd treats a service as an object (more than just a = program but also the auxiliary files and scripts). For me it was a = lightbulb moment (like realizing how a function operates in an = environment!). Though I'd probably use s-expr or a simpler config = format, not xml (as in launchd plist/SMF manifest). At the other extreme of complexity we have things like Kubernetes. Not a = fan. What I want is to be able to map all my computers and compute clusters = into a single virtual machine -- where storage, IO and computing = resources may be added / removed without taking the whole VM down, and = where each display/input user interface is a window on the same = underlying VM and all sharing is under my control. Plan9 does a bit of = this but that experiment ended too early. Apple is tending in this = direction though not cleanly (+ I don't want to rely on a faceless = behemoth corp that may trample on my data without even meaning to).= --Apple-Mail=_8403828B-BA76-4FA2-B257-196F6381ECCB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Jun = 16, 2024, at 8:57=E2=80=AFPM, ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> = wrote:

I'm curious, = as to the original topic of this discussion: can anyone justify = systemd-homed and how it works? Does that even look like 0% of a unix = idea?

I am not a fan of systemd (or linux) = and don't follow their excesses/adventures but I am not a fan of how BSD = does initialization & brings up services either. They don't quite = get all the dependencies right for all the possible combinations of = devices etc.  Its /etc/rc.d/* system is pretty clunky -- I = tend to think any time you are repeating more or less the same = boilerplate code in many files, something worth abstracting is hiding in = there.

I like how launchd  treats a = service as an object (more than just a program but also the = auxiliary files and scripts). For me it was a lightbulb moment (like = realizing how a function operates in an environment!). Though I'd = probably use s-expr or a simpler config format, not xml (as in launchd = plist/SMF manifest).

At the other extreme of = complexity we have things like Kubernetes. Not a = fan.

What I want is to be able to map all my = computers and compute clusters into a single virtual machine -- where = storage, IO and computing resources may be added / removed without = taking the whole VM down, and where each display/input user interface is = a window on the same underlying VM and all sharing is under my control. = Plan9 does a bit of this but that experiment ended too early. Apple is = tending in this direction though not cleanly (+ I don't want to rely on = a faceless behemoth corp that may trample on my data without even = meaning to).
= --Apple-Mail=_8403828B-BA76-4FA2-B257-196F6381ECCB--