From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,NICE_REPLY_A,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 2580 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2022 02:13:15 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 Feb 2022 02:13:15 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id E14B29D0C6; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 12:13:08 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55953951B7; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 12:12:32 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; secure) header.d=tnetconsulting.net header.i=@tnetconsulting.net header.b="lfUAkztq"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 907EA951B7; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 12:12:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from tncsrv06.tnetconsulting.net (tncsrv06.tnetconsulting.net [45.33.28.24]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E16C99518E for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 12:12:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: from Contact-TNet-Consulting-Abuse-for-assistance by tncsrv06.tnetconsulting.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-3) with ESMTPSA id 2112CNUH021798 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 20:12:25 -0600 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=tnetconsulting.net; s=2019; t=1643681545; bh=KH0aZKgLHgPRQVuHk0MDSNMOBPLHrkmvpjuPXJg3ZBU=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Message-ID:Date:User-Agent: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Cc:Content-Disposition: Content-Language:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Date:From: In-Reply-To:Message-ID:MIME-Version:References:Reply-To: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Sender:Subject:To: User-Agent; b=lfUAkztqCMbvnX122IJnWvBNohq6RdZJKsqmwz28mAc1qvjZVcNrM1m/tJI1VSGQi KzJBWk0AFrYz86SImrYQ2lLGqfQygzmfJQPynV8qFgB0Da6uCqmBptdmj5Hpkr1/ie CIFTdg2NZJhXb2YrRY33nI++XpCfM2CMF8fplouU= To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org References: <54965199-5023-4F99-AF27-8615E319E302@cfcl.com> <20220127015505.GC10568@netmeister.org> <20220129023641.GL16452@mcvoy.com> Organization: TNet Consulting Message-ID: <685fd0dc-e959-c7c1-0110-c8f55021b752@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 19:12:32 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms020708000508090502090600" Subject: Re: [TUHS] FYI: Internet Old Farts Club X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , From: Grant Taylor via TUHS Reply-To: Grant Taylor Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms020708000508090502090600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/29/22 1:48 AM, Andy Kosela wrote: > I can speak only for myself, but I love that TUHS/COFF mailing lists=20 > are still _the real_ mailing lists managed the old school way. Usenet is still a thing that I use daily. > I hate all those modern web 2.0 technologies with extremely bloated js = > stacks which you can only use if you have the latest version of Chrome.= =20 I too dislike what the Web 2.0 world has turned into. I believe that it's possible for web pages to by dynamic via AJAX=20 without all the bloat. Sadly this isn't done. > I am still using old Atari DOS, Amiga Workbench, MS-DOS/Win9x/WinXP=20 > and of course Linux/FreeBSD. :-) > This is probably one of the last places on the Internet that is=20 > still preserving one of its core ideas in the 80s/90s -- plain=20 > text communication. It has been slowly dying in the last 15 years.=20 > Text based Internet of the 80s and 90s has slowly been replaced by=20 > binary protocols and image based interaction with a computer. Usenet. > I still just love using text based protocols and command line and=20 > read it on a real CRT monitor in full screen text mode. We lost=20 > something when the world moved on. I used to have similar thoughts. Then I realized that things like=20 OpenSSL's s_client and curl allow interaction with encrypted and other=20 protocols. So, that got me to questioning "what is the command line"=20 (UI / UX) really? Does OpenSSL's s_client (Secure / TLS) client provide a textual=20 interface to TLS encrypted servers? Yes it does. Does it count as=20 "command line"? I think so. So, what if there was a different command line utility that allowed=20 similar interface with HTTP2 / QUIC connections. Would that mean that=20 they are similarly CLI? I think so. Extrapolating out even further, does it actually matter that the bits on = the wire are ASCII and / or unencrypted if I have a UI / UX that is akin = to a Network Virtual Terminal interface (e.g. telnet, OpenSSL's=20 s_client, etc.)? Or does the client provide an abstraction to fulfill=20 my CLI desires? I think that it probably would. I agree completely that HTTPS is decidedly different on the wire than=20 venerable HTTP which I can communicate with using telnet (et al.). However, the /telnet/ *client* is still there and being used. So when=20 you back up and look at what that /client/ does in providing an=20 abstraction between the end user and the underlying / backing protocol,=20 it turns out that the underlying / backing protocol is less important. > So please do not go anywhere.... I'm not planing on discontinuing using mailing lists or Usenet any time=20 soon. Despite the fact that they have migrated from unencrypted to=20 encrypted communications. Even my MUA / NUA is using encrypted=20 connections to the servers. But /my/ /personal/ /interaction/ with my=20 MUA / NUA hasn't changed. --=20 Grant. . . . unix || die --------------ms020708000508090502090600 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC CzowggUiMIIECqADAgECAhEAn5X6cf7kRk2GDx9LLhnqAzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBljEL MAkGA1UEBhMCR0IxGzAZBgNVBAgTEkdyZWF0ZXIgTWFuY2hlc3RlcjEQMA4GA1UEBxMHU2Fs Zm9yZDEYMBYGA1UEChMPU2VjdGlnbyBMaW1pdGVkMT4wPAYDVQQDEzVTZWN0aWdvIFJTQSBD bGllbnQgQXV0aGVudGljYXRpb24gYW5kIFNlY3VyZSBFbWFpbCBDQTAeFw0yMTExMTUwMDAw MDBaFw0yMjExMTUyMzU5NTlaMCsxKTAnBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWGmd0YXlsb3JAdG5ldGNvbnN1 bHRpbmcubmV0MIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAzOnBjTJUlBTzN81c PlYErJc9kEbTI/hXq0NA6ZoG4VM6puYTEXtITANjgX+NRwwHjldESnC8dvh6Mx5ckEk9sWoD l8Yr/dWhF3s4fGxAX5ziOeuBI/yX7rKJn6DOwclV3C6dyt3zrLB6LOiF4gA+lk/o3EbOwoPh 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