From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, MISSING_HEADERS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id dec91003 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 14:56:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 4CF33A1F15; Sat, 1 Dec 2018 00:56:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 972A7A1F03; Sat, 1 Dec 2018 00:55:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A9BD0A1F02; Sat, 1 Dec 2018 00:55:20 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail.coastal.cheswick.com (mail.coastal.cheswick.com [50.247.74.11]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD4E0A1F00 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2018 00:55:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from ricinus.local.cheswick.com (unknown [96.93.158.221]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.coastal.cheswick.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CA72023435; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 06:55:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.coastal.cheswick.com CA72023435 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=cheswick.com; s=mail; t=1543589713; bh=0/LqASRJaEocf7rqPURjn8ARZJHrM4zUYGEoGrlzK2M=; h=From:Date:Subject:In-Reply-To:Cc:References; b=ZtNEMkEBT+qhxRS8VAoIVvIWQVRqJBoptc3HmJM/1mGCfHzT7wCcX+1v9Rn6rZ//0 XCtU7u4intY95sMmh7tV9eNHIufU75nga30rLp/SjI8Hz/yeulhph4cMmjB2d9NCv2 Hzs6vsGXVX+pW6qTmVgKSQIbgxnXFSnspaQ1DIJjsI0gTVDJMHbMMjk1RPkk1Wfoz7 +p9g3oP9LWSQ8rApBuOxm7+0Qfq6UWlX1VPh+f+gU1fMYafRAp/PMJU7d7Yo0GE30E zZCMVv0e4h6bJdwPPTqXSt43BRZK9eyZwaJ+lTxojQPgyNpx2LxQIyMzPh9M7yqh4I csUf8nQtZ8GGg== From: WIlliam Cheswick Message-Id: <68E43E9C-BD27-4DDB-93D1-AD82EBCA976A@cheswick.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_93C595AB-198B-4A20-B84C-74CCBDB4F503" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.1 \(3445.101.1\)) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 09:55:11 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20181129184845.GB18414@mcvoy.com> References: <7a632484-cdc7-7c59-7077-7a2c752045da@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4c36b2b2-76df-435f-27bc-e1feb0647f36@case.edu> <201811162113.wAGLDGiQ031455@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <201811191648.wAJGmqGd005247@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20181129184845.GB18414@mcvoy.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.101.1) Subject: Re: [TUHS] man-page style X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --Apple-Mail=_93C595AB-198B-4A20-B84C-74CCBDB4F503 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I sat down to my first TCP/IP connected host around 1985, and the first = thing I wanted to do was to configure my first non-UUCP email machine. After an hour of wading through sendmail=E2=80=99s state machines, I = gave up wondering why it had to be so hard. =20 In the amazing 184 BSTJ, Dave Presotto had described upas, the = replacement he built for sendmail. I loved its ease of use, and it was = one of the reasons I wanted to join 1127, which I did in late 1987. I supported email and upas for a number of years, including the {bitnet = | csnet | uucp | acsnet(?)} -> domain migration. Like the proverbial = (and non-existent) boiling frog, this crept up on me: it was a mild = surprise to realize we were using the other stuff much any more. Aside from configuration issues, the main complaint with sendmail was = that it was a huge program running as root, with intentional and = unintentional holes in. For many years it was a steady source of = security problems, including its use in the Morris worm. That said, sendmail is still running, and handling a fair amount of = mail, I believe. A few years ago I checked for recent security problems = and found none reported. I think this is a case of =E2=80=9Csoftware = annealing=E2=80=9D: if you don=E2=80=99t change the specs much, and keep = working on it, you will eventually get most of the bugs. As for the configuration: when Norman Wilson moved to Toronto, he = implemented some form of little language for configuring sendmail, = treating it somewhat as an assembly language. I don=E2=80=99t know the = details, but they might be of interest. > On Nov 29, 2018, at 1:48 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: >=20 > Indeed. Sendmail got a lot of hate but mostly from people in pure > user@host.domain worlds. I lived in the = UUCP / BitNet / Arpanet > world and while sendmail was definitely not the easiest thing to > configure, once you got it right it just kept working (unlike UUCP > that seemed to need constant babysitting). --Apple-Mail=_93C595AB-198B-4A20-B84C-74CCBDB4F503 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = sat down to my first TCP/IP connected host around 1985, and the first = thing I wanted to do was to configure my first non-UUCP email = machine.

After an = hour of wading through sendmail=E2=80=99s state machines, I gave up = wondering why it had to be so hard.  

In the amazing 184 BSTJ, Dave Presotto = had described upas, the replacement he built for sendmail.  I loved = its ease of use, and it was one of the reasons I wanted to join 1127, = which I did in late 1987.

I supported email and upas for a number of years, including = the {bitnet | csnet | uucp | acsnet(?)} -> domain migration. =  Like the proverbial (and non-existent) boiling frog, this crept up = on me: it was a mild surprise to realize we were using the other stuff = much any more.

Aside from configuration issues, the main complaint with = sendmail was that it was a huge program running as root, with = intentional and unintentional holes in.  For many years it was a = steady source of security problems, including its use in the Morris = worm.

That = said, sendmail is still running, and handling a fair amount of mail, I = believe.  A few years ago I checked for recent security problems = and found none reported.  I think this is a case of =E2=80=9Csoftware= annealing=E2=80=9D: if you don=E2=80=99t change the specs much, and = keep working on it, you will eventually get most of the bugs.

As for the = configuration: when Norman Wilson moved to Toronto, he implemented some = form of little language for configuring sendmail, treating it somewhat = as an assembly language.  I don=E2=80=99t know the details, but = they might be of interest.

On Nov 29, 2018, at 1:48 PM, = Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

Indeed.  Sendmail got a lot = of hate but mostly from people in pure
user@host.domain worlds. =  I lived in the UUCP / BitNet / Arpanet
world and while sendmail was = definitely not the easiest thing to
configure, once you got it right it just kept working (unlike = UUCP
that seemed = to need constant babysitting).

= --Apple-Mail=_93C595AB-198B-4A20-B84C-74CCBDB4F503--