From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 8975 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2023 11:06:41 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 28 Jan 2023 11:06:41 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 587F84252D; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 21:06:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: from ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl (ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl [195.121.94.169]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCC6442521 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 21:06:03 +1000 (AEST) X-KPN-MessageId: b99b9562-9efb-11ed-afdd-005056abad63 Received: from smtp.kpnmail.nl (unknown [10.31.155.37]) by ewsoutbound.so.kpn.org (Halon) with ESMTPS id b99b9562-9efb-11ed-afdd-005056abad63; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 12:05:50 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=planet.nl; s=planet01; h=to:message-id:date:from:subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=NYCeXqwuKxdO4s/9w5R7oq2QcxSG8q/FDEac7qIwGpU=; b=VAqfVJDupuLeU/06ewGtO/2NoIWcnLdkbfDPjOEos4igMbkwSqGu9fOaTp6xQbAT5njIPta9/qzLZ X6nUN+R2Oy1hLWYjFjuA6k43HMwFSc2jdV6FDGAEqNr3C/hkTD/zzV6SXtIPj3FSyNC6pTT0CevK41 kCQCbAAc8QjlcOQ4= X-KPN-MID: 33|nFdoEQCNiWq4JPDANeHTOaGIp2FA7J5IDJDDxhxuRWDNPTPSGvhxON65JODBG8K MFqYpxufRKmdXHEmsgUP3iLFNMvUhlX5ddWLtqIdjYe0= X-KPN-VerifiedSender: Yes X-CMASSUN: 33|fssm8wCEX0HnRlYb5NsZ3KenJQON4IPEz8DhVXrHxz9mH8Hpmf3wTU8YdmulZx/ iKMa8hF56GVa6FZkb6n7n5w== X-Originating-IP: 77.172.38.96 Received: from smtpclient.apple (77-172-38-96.fixed.kpn.net [77.172.38.96]) by smtp.kpnmail.nl (Halon) with ESMTPSA id ba0b5e7c-9efb-11ed-ae07-005056ab1411; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 12:05:52 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Paul Ruizendaal In-Reply-To: <7wpmaz9g2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 12:05:51 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <697E8876-C2A9-4FE6-A2F7-B4DCEC3BA2C7@planet.nl> References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> <7wpmaz9g2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> To: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Message-ID-Hash: EEK4SBXQTAQB5IZBPKGCHW7KBZBH7Q3E X-Message-ID-Hash: EEK4SBXQTAQB5IZBPKGCHW7KBZBH7Q3E X-MailFrom: pnr@planet.nl X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > On 28 Jan 2023, at 10:14, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >=20 > Warner Losh wrote: >> Rich Salz wrote: >>> I'd like to know what the first versions of X were written in >>=20 >> Without the earlier versions' source, it's hard to answer this = question... >=20 > V source code exists, right? It seems likely W would have been = written > in the same language as W. And that early X would also be the same. > Another source of information would be to ask Bob Scheifler and Jim > Gettys. Whilst that is a reasonable assumption, I=E2=80=99m not sure it is true = in this case. Bob Scheifler writes in 1986: "We acquired a UNIX-based version of W for the VSlOO (with synchronous = communication over TCP [24] produced by Asente and Chris Kent at = Digital=E2=80=99s Western Research Laboratory.=E2=80=9D It does not say =E2=80=9CC based=E2=80=9D, but it is quite possible that = the Unix port also meant moving to C. Also, the work started in June 1984 and had gone to version 10, release = 3 by February 1986. That is 12 versions in 20 months. Most likely = X1-X10R2 are all snapshots done in rapid succession. The change notes = for X10R3 read as describing a work still in progress: http://www.retro11.de/ouxr/43bsd/usr/src/new/X/CHANGES That =E2=80=9Cwork-in-progress=E2=80=9D feel also shows in the Xterm = README: "Xterm is in a reasonably usable state. We are sick and tired of = working on it, but there are clearly major areas of improvement possible. Do not look to us to do more than integration work on other people's improvement. About 50% of it is the oldest existing code in the package and needing major rewrite. Our thanks to Bob McNamara for the 50% which is solid." The README for the X server itself (written in August 1985 it seems, = http://www.retro11.de/ouxr/43bsd/usr/src/new/X/X/README) says: "The server has been completely rewritten several times now, and I am = reasonably happy with it. I have fine-tuned it specifically for the current = (sub-optimal) VAX compiler. For other machines, faster code may be obtained in some = cases by changing sizes (e.g., to avoid indexing shifts on the 68000) or = register declarations. Attempts to parameterize along these lines have only been = made for the byte-swapping code.=E2=80=9D So there were several rewrites from Summer 1984 till Summer 1985. In = case the first version was in CLU, it would seem that the change-over to = C happened in the very first months of the code base=E2=80=99s lifespan. The next paragraph as to the state of the code base at this time is = revealing: Unfortunately, a great many invariants are not written down. Hopefully = you will spend a few weeks understanding the code before you muck with it. = If something seems easy to add or change, you probably forgot something = important. Almost everything depends on everything else. It is almost impossible = to devise rigorous test cases. Innocuous looking changes can have large performance effects, so watch out. If you muck with fundamental window components, a good cross-check is to see how quickly you can manipulate = a window with, say, 100 non-adjacent subwindows. After reading the above, Jon Steinhart=E2=80=99s post from 5 years ago = about X is all the more interesting: = https://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/2017-September/012089.html