From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 11a14ea1 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 22:25:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 48DE99BDCF; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 08:25:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C94F79BD79; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 08:24:46 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="TyJ9/TQ3"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 9C5DD9BD79; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 08:24:43 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f181.google.com (mail-qk1-f181.google.com [209.85.222.181]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B0A99BD3C for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 08:24:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f181.google.com with SMTP id f10so1231729qkg.7 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 15:24:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=+IYbpJtGo0YbvOvNVCCa4W5D44Pmh5pBuNBh0sEEM3w=; b=TyJ9/TQ3fyg4wXj1Y+KyQbz20m/vIvJUdRPKIFDbgYqzy25gaXenE5/WsqtFl4uao/ mKfSypfvZV7ixO73qnTP3zAQZ/zZ03xcF5yLktdnNjP+vM4VLv08ULyWQwgVyptpylsO h8fVLqCl8f9xbsDyKb7/bS2lZCCf1rBV5Hg1E= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=+IYbpJtGo0YbvOvNVCCa4W5D44Pmh5pBuNBh0sEEM3w=; b=lLTscOoP/DfX3I8EWxtyWv5HbQp2TkM2PANz0fhISH4w7c5X4EHJcc+F22wTfe6lyf 9xs+Ws4xOa670EBLerIePbx24tMkV1KUElsELftyxiXCQ0rrzfkvFfRT49E/8KYrCVnM 2RY7KVYRH1R0JJNNJEhlDCpRNhHA/9SuProq+33kOXhNbPyH2p1z2O1MFTLWf/iZVTOO EgXpTMkfsT7186eHd4XaFGbnwXng72W85kl6Kf59xW56ce8B6HJhKShIV915rhQ+rxjz PtZePI7yy1BHsWdI8ITE4Go2d9XvHlQiq4wwKiq+5Da0V+Ik0npi4OI4L+FbifANr7tS 1TNA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVZCuqDfUBE65B/moKqpO9W4vBno0WhR/MHuhUAMfzVr2w16kO6 rbKM7lObgZgHqlbpVmCXhH9myg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyogLwO9cK1iHAW2OuaKavvwmUDmwUlhXsXB4r8GPTBUQDueGThXQ/mEj21/s6c17N9CEOmNQ== X-Received: by 2002:ae9:e203:: with SMTP id c3mr6261374qkc.282.1567031081238; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 15:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.10.108] (pool-173-48-42-254.bstnma.fios.verizon.net. [173.48.42.254]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x7sm248541qti.87.2019.08.28.15.24.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 28 Aug 2019 15:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-8E05F40E-5E0A-4B4C-A711-A59E7C6A74A3 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Clem cole X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G77) In-Reply-To: <03a959f8-e1a3-4765-a135-efa0bea5fbf2.maildroid@localhost> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 18:24:38 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <6A55D190-D7D6-4C1D-817C-5ED868A7E747@ccc.com> References: <13c5c36e-c84d-e020-d09e-51c8c502dc6d@kilonet.net> <03a959f8-e1a3-4765-a135-efa0bea5fbf2.maildroid@localhost> To: William Pechter Subject: Re: [TUHS] If not Linux, then what? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --Apple-Mail-8E05F40E-5E0A-4B4C-A711-A59E7C6A74A3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Absolutely. Bill Jolitiz wrote the original version of fdisk with a very sma= ll assist from me. I used to keep a 33m dos partition on my system if for n= o other reason than the diags all ran on dos Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite.= =20 > On Aug 28, 2019, at 4:56 PM, William Pechter wrote: >=20 > Actually, IIRC, you could use fdisk to split up drives in FreeBSD... I th= ink I did that in the 1.02 days...=20 >=20 > The problem is the semantics of slices and partitions. Also *BSD, I recal= l, had to boot from a primary partition. I don't know if lilo cared and gru= b2 sure doesn't.=20 >=20 >=20 > Sent from pechter@gmail.com >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Adam Thornton > To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society > Sent: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 16:28 > Subject: Re: [TUHS] If not Linux, then what? >=20 > I was an ardent OS/2 supporter for a long time. Sure, IBM's anemic market= ing, and their close-to-outright-hostility to 3rd-party developers didn't he= lp. But what killed it, really, was how damn good its 16-bit support was. I= t *was* a better DOS than DOS and a better Windows than 3.11fW. So no one w= rote to the relatively tiny market of 32-bit OS/2. >=20 > I fear that had Linux not made the leap, MS might well have won. It's lar= gely the AOL-fuelled explosion of popularity of the Internet and Windows ign= oring same until too late that opened the door enough for Linux to jam its f= oot in. >=20 > Hurd was, by the time of the '386 Unix Wars and early Linux, clearly not g= oing to be a contender, I guess because it was about cool research features r= ather than running user-facing code. I kept waiting for a usable kernel to g= o with what Linux had already shown was a quite decent userspace, but eventu= ally had better things to do with my life (like chase BeOS). It was like wa= iting for Perl 6--it missed its moment. >=20 > Plan 9 and Amoeba were both really nifty. I never used Sprite. Neither= one of them had much of a chance in the real world. Much like Unix itself,= Linux's worse-is-better approach really worked. =20 >=20 > I have a hypothesis about Linux's ascendance too, which is a personal anec= dote I am inflating to the status of hypothesis. As I recall, the *BSDs for= 386 all assumed they owned the hard disk. Like, the whole thing. You coul= dn't, at least in 1992, create a multiboot system--or at least it was my str= ong impression you could not. I was an undergrad. I had one '386 at my dis= posal, with one hard disk, and, hey, I needed DOS and Windows to write my pa= pers (I don't know about you, but I wanted to write in my room, where I coul= d have my references at hand and be reasonably undisturbed; sure Framemaker w= as a much better setup than Word For Windows 1.2 but having to use it in the= computer lab made it a nonstarter for me). Papers, and, well, to play game= s. Sure, that too. >=20 > Linux let me defragment my drive, non-destructively repartition it, and cr= eate a dual-boot system, so that I could both use the computer for school an= d screw around on Linux. I'm probably not the only person for whom this was= a decisive factor. >=20 > Adam >=20 >> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 1:08 PM Christopher Browne w= rote: >>> On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 at 19:14, Arthur Krewat wrote: >>=20 >>> https://linux.slashdot.org/story/19/08/26/0051234/celebrating-the-28th-a= nniversary-of-the-linux-kernel >>>=20 >>> Leaving licensing and copyright issues out of this mental exercise, what= =20 >>> would we have now if it wasn't for Linux? Not what you'd WANT it to be,=20= >>> although that can add to the discussion, but what WOULD it be? >>>=20 >>> I'm not asking as a proponent of Linux. If anything, I was dragged=20 >>> kicking and screaming into the current day and have begrudgingly ceded=20= >>> my server space to Linux. >>>=20 >>> But if not for Linux, would it be BSD? A System V variant? Or (the=20 >>> horror) Windows NT? >>=20 >> I can make a firm "dunno" sound :-) >>=20 >> Some facts can come together to point away from a number of possibilities= ... >>=20 >> - If you look at the number of hobbyist "Unix homages" that emerged at ar= ound that time, it's clear that there was a sizable community of interested f= olk willing to build their own thing, and that weren't interested in Windows= NT. (Nay, one should put that more strongly... That had their minds set o= n something NOT from Microsoft.) So I think we can cross Windows NT off the= list. >>=20 >> - OS/2 should briefly come on the list. It was likable in many ways, if o= nly IBM had actually supported it... But it suffers from something of the s= ame problem as Windows NT; there were a lot of folk that were only slightly l= ess despising of IBM at the time than of Microsoft. >>=20 >> - Hurd was imagined to be the next thing... >>=20 >> To borrow from my cookie file... >>=20 >> "Of course 5 years from now that will be different, but 5 years from >> now everyone will be running free GNU on their 200 MIPS, 64M >> SPARCstation-5." -- Andrew Tanenbaum, 1992. >> % >> "You'll be rid of most of us when BSD-detox or GNU comes out, which >> should happen in the next few months (yeah, right)." -- Richard Tobin, >> 1992. [BSD did follow within a year] >> % >> "I am aware of the benefits of a micro kernel approach. However, the >> fact remains that Linux is here, and GNU isn't --- and people have >> been working on Hurd for a lot longer than Linus has been working on >> Linux." -- Ted T'so, 1992. >>=20 >> Ted has been on this thread, and should be amused (and slightly disturbed= !) that his old statements are being held here and there, ready to trot out := -). >>=20 >> In the absence of Linux, perhaps hackers would have flocked to Hurd, but t= here was enough going on that there was plenty of room for them to have done= so anyways. >>=20 >> I'm not sure what to blame on whatever happened post-1992, though I'd put= some on Microsoft Research having taken the wind out of Mach's sails by hir= ing off a bunch of the relevant folk. In order for Hurd to "make it," Mach h= as to "make it," too, and it looked like they were depending on CMU to be be= hind that. (I'm not sure I'm right about that; happy to hear a better story= .) >>=20 >> Anyway, Hurd *might* have been a "next thing," and I don't think the popu= larity of Linux was enough to have completely taken wind out of its sails, g= iven that there's the dozens of "Unix homages" out there. >>=20 >> - I'd like to imagine Plan 9 being an alternative, but it was "properly c= ommercial" for a goodly long time (hence not amenable to attaching waves of h= ackers to it to add their favorite device drivers), and was never taken as a= serious answer. Many of us had admired it from afar via the Dr Dobbs Journ= al issue (when was that? mid or late '90s?) but only from afar. >>=20 >> - FreeBSD is the single best answer I can throw up as a possibility, as i= t was the one actively targeting 80386 hardware. And that had the big risk o= f the AT&T lawsuit lurking over it, so had that gone in a different directio= n, then that is a branch sadly easily trimmed. >>=20 >> If we lop both Linux and FreeBSD off the list of possibilities, I don't i= magine Windows NT or OS/2 bubble to the top, instead, a critical mass would h= ave stood behind ... something else, I'd think. I don't know which to sugge= st. >> --=20 >> When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the >> question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" --Apple-Mail-8E05F40E-5E0A-4B4C-A711-A59E7C6A74A3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Absolutely. Bill Jolitiz wrote the original= version of fdisk with a very small assist from me.  I used to keep a 3= 3m dos partition on my system if for no other reason than the diags all ran o= n dos

Sent from my PDP-7 R= unning UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

On Aug 28, 2019, at 4:56 PM, William Pechter <pechter@gmail.com> wrote:

Actually, IIRC, you could use fdisk= to split up drives in FreeBSD...  I think I did that in the 1.02 days.= ..

The problem is the semantics of slices and partitions.  Also *BSD, I re= call, had to boot from a primary partition.  I don't know if lilo cared= and grub2 sure doesn't.


Sent from pechter@gmail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com>
To: The Eun= uchs Hysterical Society <tuhs@tuhs.org>
Sent: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 16:28
Subject: Re: [TUHS] If not Linux, t= hen what?


I fear that h= ad Linux not made the leap, MS might well have won.  It's largely the A= OL-fuelled explosion of popularity of the Internet and Windows ignoring same= until too late that opened the door enough for Linux to jam its foot in.

Hurd was, by the time of the '386 Unix Wars and early= Linux, clearly not going to be a contender, I guess because it was about co= ol research features rather than running user-facing code.  I kept wait= ing for a usable kernel to go with what Linux had already shown was a quite d= ecent userspace, but eventually had better things to do with my life (like c= hase BeOS).  It was like waiting for Perl 6--it missed its moment.

Plan 9 and Amoeba were both really nifty.  &n= bsp; I never used Sprite.  Neither one of them had much of a chance in t= he real world.  Much like Unix itself, Linux's worse-is-better approach= really worked. 

I have a hypothesis abou= t Linux's ascendance too, which is a personal anecdote I am inflating to the= status of hypothesis.  As I recall, the *BSDs for 386 all assumed they= owned the hard disk.  Like, the whole thing.  You couldn't, at le= ast in 1992, create a multiboot system--or at least it was my strong impress= ion you could not.  I was an undergrad.  I had one '386 at my disp= osal, with one hard disk, and, hey, I needed DOS and Windows to write my pap= ers (I don't know about you, but I wanted to write in my room, where I could= have my references at hand and be reasonably undisturbed; sure Framemaker w= as a much better setup than Word For Windows 1.2 but having to use it in the= computer lab made it a nonstarter for me).  Papers, and, well, to play= games.  Sure, that too.

Linux let me defragme= nt my drive, non-destructively repartition it, and create a dual-boot system= , so that I could both use the computer for school and screw around on Linux= .  I'm probably not the only person for whom this was a decisive factor= .

Adam

On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 1:08 PM Chri= stopher Browne <cbbrowne@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
https://linux.slashdot.org/story/19/08/26/0051234/= celebrating-the-28th-anniversary-of-the-linux-kernel

Leaving licensing and copyright issues out of this mental exercise, what would we have now if it wasn't for Linux? Not what you'd WANT it to be,
= although that can add to the discussion, but what WOULD it be?

I'm not asking as a proponent of Linux. If anything, I was dragged
kicking and screaming into the current day and have begrudgingly ceded
my server space to Linux.

But if not for Linux, would it be BSD? A System V variant? Or (the
horror) Windows NT?

I can make a firm "d= unno" sound :-)

Some facts can come together to poi= nt away from a number of possibilities...

- If you l= ook at the number of hobbyist "Unix homages" that emerged at around that tim= e, it's clear that there was a sizable community of interested folk willing t= o build their own thing, and that weren't interested in Windows NT.  (N= ay, one should put that more strongly...  That had their minds set on s= omething NOT from Microsoft.)  So I think we can cross Windows NT off t= he list.

- OS/2 should briefly come on the list.&nb= sp; It was likable in many ways, if only IBM had actually supported it...&nb= sp; But it suffers from something of the same problem as Windows NT; there w= ere a lot of folk that were only slightly less despising of IBM at the time t= han of Microsoft.

- Hurd was imagined to be the nex= t thing...

To borrow from my cookie file...

"Of course 5  years from now that will be different, &= nbsp;but 5 years from
now  everyone  will  be  runnin= g  free  GNU on  their  200  MIPS,  64M
SPA= RCstation-5."  -- Andrew Tanenbaum, 1992.
%
"You'll be  rid of most of us  when BSD-detox or GNU  come= s out, which
should happen in the next few months (yeah, right)." -- Rich= ard Tobin,
1992. [BSD did follow within a year]
%
"I am aware of th= e benefits  of a micro kernel approach.  However, the
fact rema= ins  that Linux is  here, and GNU  isn't --- and  people= have
been working on Hurd for a lot longer than Linus has been working o= n
Linux." -- Ted T'so, 1992.

Ted has been on thi= s thread, and should be amused (and slightly disturbed!) that his old statem= ents are being held here and there, ready to trot out :-).

In the absence of Linux, perhaps hackers would have flocked to Hurd,= but there was enough going on that there was plenty of room for them to hav= e done so anyways.

I'm not sure what to blame on wh= atever happened post-1992, though I'd put some on Microsoft Research having t= aken the wind out of Mach's sails by hiring off a bunch of the relevant folk= .  In order for Hurd to "make it," Mach has to "make it," too, and it l= ooked like they were depending on CMU to be behind that.  (I'm not sure= I'm right about that; happy to hear a better story.)

Anyw= ay, Hurd *might* have been a "next thing," and I don't think the popularity o= f Linux was enough to have completely taken wind out of its sails, given tha= t there's the dozens of "Unix homages" out there.

-= I'd like to imagine Plan 9 being an alternative, but it was "properly comme= rcial" for a goodly long time (hence not amenable to attaching waves of hack= ers to it to add their favorite device drivers), and was never taken as a se= rious answer.  Many of us had admired it from afar via the Dr Dobbs Jou= rnal issue (when was that?  mid or late '90s?) but only from afar.
<= /div>

- FreeBSD is the single best answer I can throw up a= s a possibility, as it was the one actively targeting 80386 hardware.  A= nd that had the big risk of the AT&T lawsuit lurking over it, so had tha= t gone in a different direction, then that is a branch sadly easily trimmed.=

If we lop both Linux and FreeBSD off the list of p= ossibilities, I don't imagine Windows NT or OS/2 bubble to the top, instead,= a critical mass would have stood behind ... something else, I'd think. = ; I don't know which to suggest.
--
When confro= nted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "Ho= w would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
= --Apple-Mail-8E05F40E-5E0A-4B4C-A711-A59E7C6A74A3--