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* [TUHS] The MGR window system and the Macintosh
@ 2022-08-04 19:45 John Floren
  2022-08-04 20:18 ` [TUHS] " Al Kossow
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: John Floren @ 2022-08-04 19:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Today I came across an article about the MGR window system for Unix:
https://hack.org/mc/mgr/

One thing that interested me was a note that some versions worked on the
Macintosh:

 > The window system ran on many different hardware platforms, at least
 > these: Sun 3/xx workstations running SunOS, which was the the original
 > development platform, Sun SPARCstations (SunOS and then ported by me to
 > Solaris), Intel x86 based PCs (Coherent, Minix, FreeBSD or Linux),
 > Atari ST (under MiNT), AT&T UnixPC (SysV) and the Macintosh.

As the owner of a Macintosh Plus, I think it would be a very interesting
thing to experiment with, but I haven't had much luck finding any more
information about it.

Does anyone know more about MGR, particularly on the Mac? That page has
the source for MGR 0.69, but there's no mention of the Macintosh in it
(aside from comments about how it was supported on older versions...)

John


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
  2022-08-04 19:45 [TUHS] The MGR window system and the Macintosh John Floren
@ 2022-08-04 20:18 ` Al Kossow
  2022-08-04 20:29   ` Al Kossow
  2022-08-04 21:14 ` Dan Cross
  2022-08-05  8:38 ` arnold
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Al Kossow @ 2022-08-04 20:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 8/4/22 12:45 PM, John Floren wrote:
> Today I came across an article about the MGR window system for Unix:
> https://hack.org/mc/mgr/
> 
> One thing that interested me was a note that some versions worked on the
> Macintosh:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22457846

gives the origins

I probably have the code in the backups of the archive that I used to maintain on the Apple VAX
at that time.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
  2022-08-04 20:18 ` [TUHS] " Al Kossow
@ 2022-08-04 20:29   ` Al Kossow
  2022-08-04 23:07     ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Al Kossow @ 2022-08-04 20:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 8/4/22 1:18 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 8/4/22 12:45 PM, John Floren wrote:
>> Today I came across an article about the MGR window system for Unix:
>> https://hack.org/mc/mgr/
>>
>> One thing that interested me was a note that some versions worked on the
>> Macintosh:
> 
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22457846
> 
> gives the origins
> 
> I probably have the code in the backups of the archive that I used to maintain on the Apple VAX
> at that time.

you can find the original c.s.unix files here
http://sources.vsta.org/comp.sources.unix/volume17/mgr

i think I may need to push this to bitsavers. the c.s.unix archive was a little more difficult to find
than I thought.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
  2022-08-04 19:45 [TUHS] The MGR window system and the Macintosh John Floren
  2022-08-04 20:18 ` [TUHS] " Al Kossow
@ 2022-08-04 21:14 ` Dan Cross
  2022-08-04 22:07   ` Bakul Shah
  2022-08-09  1:46   ` Dave Horsfall
  2022-08-05  8:38 ` arnold
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2022-08-04 21:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Floren; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 3:46 PM John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote:
> [snip]
> Does anyone know more about MGR, particularly on the Mac? That page has
> the source for MGR 0.69, but there's no mention of the Macintosh in it
> (aside from comments about how it was supported on older versions...)

I got it working once under FreeBSD back in the 4.x days.

It wasn't particularly notable, or at least didn't leave much of an
impression; it presented a pretty "standard" (and primitive!)
graphical experience. I believe it was monochrome, with amber
on black.

I don't know anything about it on the Mac, I'm afraid; I suspect it
probably ran in a Window under Finder, but that is pure speculation.

        - Dan C.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
  2022-08-04 21:14 ` Dan Cross
@ 2022-08-04 22:07   ` Bakul Shah
  2022-08-04 23:09     ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2022-08-09  1:46   ` Dave Horsfall
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2022-08-04 22:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dan Cross; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society



> On Aug 4, 2022, at 2:14 PM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 3:46 PM John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote:
>> [snip]
>> Does anyone know more about MGR, particularly on the Mac? That page has
>> the source for MGR 0.69, but there's no mention of the Macintosh in it
>> (aside from comments about how it was supported on older versions...)
> 
> I got it working once under FreeBSD back in the 4.x days.
> 
> It wasn't particularly notable, or at least didn't leave much of an
> impression; it presented a pretty "standard" (and primitive!)
> graphical experience. I believe it was monochrome, with amber
> on black.
> 
> I don't know anything about it on the Mac, I'm afraid; I suspect it
> probably ran in a Window under Finder, but that is pure speculation.

From its wikipedia entry:

    The initial Macintosh port was done on a Macintosh Plus
    computer using the Lightspeed C compiler. It was a hybrid
    port in that many of the low-level operations were passed
    on to QuickDraw instead of using the internal bitmap
    code. The application did not conform to the Macintosh
    user interface guidelines as it took over the entire
    screen. The initial version used either available serial
    port as the communications channel. A later update of the
    port could use either ethernet or serial communications.

[No reference to how this was obtained]

MGR reference manual (from Stephen A. Uhler's home page):
https://sau.homeip.net/papers/mgrman.pdf

Architecture and Design of the MGR Window System:
https://sau.homeip.net/papers/arch.pdf

Here it says a port to Macintosh-Plus was done in two weeks.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
  2022-08-04 20:29   ` Al Kossow
@ 2022-08-04 23:07     ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2022-08-04 23:16       ` Richard Salz
  2022-08-04 23:21       ` Bakul Shah
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2022-08-04 23:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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On 8/4/22 2:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> you can find the original c.s.unix files here
> http://sources.vsta.org/comp.sources.unix/volume17/mgr

Oh ... that's going to be a slippery slope.

I've already downloaded 108 MB and plan on integrating the messages into 
a Maildir where -- I think -- my MUA will make it trivial to read 
messages.  }:-)

I looked through the index.2 file from volume 29 for volumes 28, 27, and 
part of 26 where I found half a dozen or more things that I want to 
investigate.

I suspect I'm going to be printing that listing and highlighting things 
of interest.

I think there's a rabbit hole at the bottom of the slippery slope that 
I'm already sliding down.

> i think I may need to push this to bitsavers. the c.s.unix archive 
> was a little more difficult to find than I thought.

Is that your site? Or someone else's.  The URL tends to indicate the latter.

I ask because I'd be happy to mirror it on my site.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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* [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
  2022-08-04 22:07   ` Bakul Shah
@ 2022-08-04 23:09     ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2022-08-05  0:37       ` Andrew Newman
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2022-08-04 23:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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On 8/4/22 4:07 PM, Bakul Shah wrote:
> From its wikipedia entry:
> 
> The initial Macintosh port was done on a Macintosh Plus computer 
> using the Lightspeed C compiler. It was a hybrid port in that many 
> of the low-level operations were passed on to QuickDraw instead of 
> using the internal bitmap code. The application did not conform to 
> the Macintosh user interface guidelines as it took over the entire 
> screen. The initial version used either available serial port as the 
> communications channel. A later update of the port could use either 
> ethernet or serial communications.

The idea of something doing graphics over a serial port is intriguing to 
me.  Eliding some form of IP over a dial up connection.

The closest thing that comes to mind is Sixel or ReGIS graphics.

> [No reference to how this was obtained]
> 
> MGR reference manual (from Stephen A. Uhler's home page):
> https://sau.homeip.net/papers/mgrman.pdf
> 
> Architecture and Design of the MGR Window System:
> https://sau.homeip.net/papers/arch.pdf
> 
> Here it says a port to Macintosh-Plus was done in two weeks.

:-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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* [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
  2022-08-04 23:07     ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2022-08-04 23:16       ` Richard Salz
  2022-08-04 23:21       ` Bakul Shah
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Richard Salz @ 2022-08-04 23:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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I think if you search for "comp.sources.unix archive" or maybe
"mod.sources" you should find lots of places.

I don't have a copy:)

        /r$, moderator thereto

PS: Uhler presented MGR at Usenix. A year or two later he presented spiff,
a "spiffy diff" and he got much better.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
  2022-08-04 23:07     ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2022-08-04 23:16       ` Richard Salz
@ 2022-08-04 23:21       ` Bakul Shah
  2022-08-04 23:42         ` Al Kossow
  2022-08-04 23:56         ` Larry McVoy
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2022-08-04 23:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: tuhs


> On Aug 4, 2022, at 4:07 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
> 
> On 8/4/22 2:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
>> i think I may need to push this to bitsavers. the c.s.unix archive was a little more difficult to find than I thought.
> 
> Is that your site? Or someone else's.  The URL tends to indicate the latter.

I believe that is Andy Valencia's site. He is the author of VSTa microkernel.

> I ask because I'd be happy to mirror it on my site.

I think Usenet bits are archived on archive.org. For instance:
https://archive.org/details/cdrom-usernet-sources-newsgroups-1994-10-1

You can also find them on googlegroups but don't know what damage they may
have done. I FTPed all comp.sources.{unix,x} posts from DEC's gatekeeper
about 20 years back. I still prefer local copies of things I may want to
check out again!


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
  2022-08-04 23:21       ` Bakul Shah
@ 2022-08-04 23:42         ` Al Kossow
  2022-08-04 23:51           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2022-08-04 23:56         ` Larry McVoy
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Al Kossow @ 2022-08-04 23:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 8/4/22 4:21 PM, Bakul Shah wrote:

> I think Usenet bits are archived on archive.org.

Forgot about the Walnut Creek Sources CD from 1992

https://archive.org/details/CDROM_March92

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
  2022-08-04 23:42         ` Al Kossow
@ 2022-08-04 23:51           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2022-08-04 23:58             ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2022-08-04 23:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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On 8/4/22 5:42 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> Forgot about the Walnut Creek Sources CD from 1992
> 
> https://archive.org/details/CDROM_March92

LOL

You all are feeding a -- let's go with -- questionable hobby.

At least it's cheaper than a hole in the water that you pour money into. 
  a.k.a. a boat.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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* [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
  2022-08-04 23:21       ` Bakul Shah
  2022-08-04 23:42         ` Al Kossow
@ 2022-08-04 23:56         ` Larry McVoy
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2022-08-04 23:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bakul Shah; +Cc: Grant Taylor, tuhs

On Thu, Aug 04, 2022 at 04:21:28PM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
> 
> > On Aug 4, 2022, at 4:07 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
> > 
> > On 8/4/22 2:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> >> i think I may need to push this to bitsavers. the c.s.unix archive was a little more difficult to find than I thought.
> > 
> > Is that your site? Or someone else's.  The URL tends to indicate the latter.
> 
> I believe that is Andy Valencia's site. He is the author of VSTa microkernel.
> 
> > I ask because I'd be happy to mirror it on my site.
> 
> I think Usenet bits are archived on archive.org. For instance:
> https://archive.org/details/cdrom-usernet-sources-newsgroups-1994-10-1
> 
> You can also find them on googlegroups but don't know what damage they may
> have done. 

Oh, the damage that Google has done to netnews is immense.  Remember
dejanews?  With their spiffy search interface that would let you look for
stuff in date ranges?  Yeah, google bought dejanews, killed the search
(because theirs was "better", it most definitely is not), and then did
google groups which is complete garbage.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
  2022-08-04 23:51           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2022-08-04 23:58             ` Larry McVoy
  2022-08-05  4:26               ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2022-08-04 23:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: tuhs

On Thu, Aug 04, 2022 at 05:51:18PM -0600, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> At least it's cheaper than a hole in the water that you pour money into.
> a.k.a. a boat.

See my signature :)  I bought new so most of the money poured was up
front, I paid 10x what a buddy of mine did who has the same boat
(Grady-White 228 if anyone cares) but mine just works and he is 
constantly working on his.  I got the better deal if you care about
your time.  I want to fish, not wrench.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy           Retired to fishing          http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
  2022-08-04 23:09     ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2022-08-05  0:37       ` Andrew Newman
  2022-08-05  2:14         ` Al Kossow
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Newman @ 2022-08-05  0:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: Grant Taylor

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> On 5 Aug 2022, at 9:09 am, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> The idea of something doing graphics over a serial port is intriguing to me.  Eliding some form of IP over a dial up connection.
> 
> The closest thing that comes to mind is Sixel or ReGIS graphics.


In the early to mid 1980s I used Tektronix storage terminals hooked up to a PDP-11 and/or VAX. And we also had an AED terminal that did raster graphics. All via serial comms.

There's a bunch of AED documentation online, including this...

 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/brochures/AED_767_Brochure_Jun82.pdf <http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/brochures/AED_767_Brochure_Jun82.pdf>

(searching for AED graphics terminal will lead you to the user manual which has a lot more detail and electrical specs and so on)


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* [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
  2022-08-05  0:37       ` Andrew Newman
@ 2022-08-05  2:14         ` Al Kossow
  2022-08-05 13:33           ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Al Kossow @ 2022-08-05  2:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 8/4/22 5:37 PM, Andrew Newman wrote:

> There's a bunch of AED documentation online, including this...
> 
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/brochures/AED_767_Brochure_Jun82.pdf <http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/brochures/AED_767_Brochure_Jun82.pdf>

I worked at AED before going to Apple, to stay sort of window related, the last project I worked on at AED was
a VME and Qbus board set that was a complete color X terminal. At the time, Jim Gettys didn't see the point of
the product.

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/colorware_cards/pictures/screen.jpg




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
  2022-08-04 23:58             ` Larry McVoy
@ 2022-08-05  4:26               ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2022-08-05  4:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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On 8/4/22 5:58 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> See my signature :)

I'm glad to see the :) because I did mean it as a joke and to be funny.

> I bought new so most of the money poured was up front, I paid 10x 
> what a buddy of mine did who has the same boat (Grady-White 228 if 
> anyone cares) but mine just works and he is constantly working on his. 
> I got the better deal if you care about your time.

There's the purchase price and then there's the total cost of ownership.

> I want to fish, not wrench.

I like that phrase and it's intent.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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* [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
  2022-08-04 19:45 [TUHS] The MGR window system and the Macintosh John Floren
  2022-08-04 20:18 ` [TUHS] " Al Kossow
  2022-08-04 21:14 ` Dan Cross
@ 2022-08-05  8:38 ` arnold
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2022-08-05  8:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs, john

John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote:

> Today I came across an article about the MGR window system for Unix:
> https://hack.org/mc/mgr/

I ran it for a while on a sparcstation.  Compared to X Windows on the
same hardware it was super fast.  IIRC the version I used supported
color.

Although I owned a UnixPC, I never botherd to put MGR on it.

It was a neat, small footprint windowing system.

Arnold

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
  2022-08-05  2:14         ` Al Kossow
@ 2022-08-05 13:33           ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2022-08-05 13:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Al Kossow; +Cc: Computer Old Farts Followers

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This thread needs to move to COFF to continue - although my own story is
1/2 about BSD and the VAX.

On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 10:15 PM Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> wrote:

> On 8/4/22 5:37 PM, Andrew Newman wrote:
>
> > There's a bunch of AED documentation online, including this...
> >
> > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/brochures/AED_767_Brochure_Jun82.pdf <
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/brochures/AED_767_Brochure_Jun82.pdf>
>
> I worked at AED before going to Apple, to stay sort of window related, the
> last project I worked on at AED was
> a VME and Qbus board set that was a complete color X terminal.
>
I had to chuckle when I read that.  In the fall of '82 (I think), we got a
Smalltalk VM from PARC at UCB.  Dave Unger, Ken Keller, and I - plus some
other folks in Patterson's systems seminar who's names I have since
forgotten, wrote a VM in C for the VAX/BSD.  We used an AED512 and Keller's
graphics library from his thesis running over a 19.2 serial link as the
output.  About a month after we had it running, a couple of us got to visit
PARC, and Peter Deutch showed us Smalltalk running on a Dorado.  He ran his
hand with the mouse across the screen opening and closing a bunch of
windows randomly.   We started laughing and Peter asked us what was so
funny.  We told him what he did would have taken at least 5 minutes to
redisplay on BSD/VAX version.

Clem
ᐧ

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* [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
  2022-08-04 21:14 ` Dan Cross
  2022-08-04 22:07   ` Bakul Shah
@ 2022-08-09  1:46   ` Dave Horsfall
  2022-08-09  1:50     ` Dave Horsfall
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2022-08-09  1:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Computer Old Farts Followers; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[ Moved to COFF ]

On Thu, 4 Aug 2022, Dan Cross wrote:

[...]

> It wasn't particularly notable, or at least didn't leave much of an
> impression; it presented a pretty "standard" (and primitive!)
> graphical experience. I believe it was monochrome, with amber
> on black.

It also ran on the Applix 1616, an Aussie designed and built 68000
system; it was pretty much ahead of its time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applix_1616

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
  2022-08-09  1:46   ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2022-08-09  1:50     ` Dave Horsfall
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2022-08-09  1:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Computer Old Farts Followers; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Tue, 9 Aug 2022, Dave Horsfall wrote:

> It also ran on the Applix 1616, an Aussie designed and built 68000
> system; it was pretty much ahead of its time.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applix_1616

Oops; I forgot the article describing how MGR was ported to said box:

    http://ericlindsay.com/applix/mgr.pdf

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-08-09  1:51 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 20+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-08-04 19:45 [TUHS] The MGR window system and the Macintosh John Floren
2022-08-04 20:18 ` [TUHS] " Al Kossow
2022-08-04 20:29   ` Al Kossow
2022-08-04 23:07     ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2022-08-04 23:16       ` Richard Salz
2022-08-04 23:21       ` Bakul Shah
2022-08-04 23:42         ` Al Kossow
2022-08-04 23:51           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2022-08-04 23:58             ` Larry McVoy
2022-08-05  4:26               ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2022-08-04 23:56         ` Larry McVoy
2022-08-04 21:14 ` Dan Cross
2022-08-04 22:07   ` Bakul Shah
2022-08-04 23:09     ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2022-08-05  0:37       ` Andrew Newman
2022-08-05  2:14         ` Al Kossow
2022-08-05 13:33           ` Clem Cole
2022-08-09  1:46   ` Dave Horsfall
2022-08-09  1:50     ` Dave Horsfall
2022-08-05  8:38 ` arnold

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