From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 8cdcb83e for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2019 23:57:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 1BB0C9BB5E; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 09:57:01 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 283CF9B4F2; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 09:56:47 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="lv7oiQVC"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 461A89B4F2; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 09:56:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f179.google.com (mail-qt1-f179.google.com [209.85.160.179]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7BAC9B486 for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 09:56:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f179.google.com with SMTP id v38so19731815qtb.0 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2019 16:56:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=u2AyYbUYndeXJMv1dVJ3V7GUd3LkSwlDoNoPGH9YJ+s=; b=lv7oiQVCddZp3a04O69qSCIbT0ahFBgcOvOQG2zRFYErxC7RWR6UYHV0C4DBcyKhQz ROKiDDFqqGaPI7RZn4xAy5JaU5ci05n/aQgocTBy7gN1c+khTfGP4L27qH55j7DUxLMx uU6HQgScAHB8aOG/1A6FLje7zddWN/ejw1ytp6ZjuL/Zcnz95yUj1F4wmwDjUy8Rm+sr QsUO0biOrkJmd6JnCZmv2DUURMyY+uS857Y9BOvFLQvcMwdYj0C/Q2fWLZ2TbXjswb67 SDlwjgPwGrLDbgzAdF6FYCE0gazo5rhy3z5oUz6Y7e1SlnALc6THcxZfdY06lKDMHHEe vPyA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=u2AyYbUYndeXJMv1dVJ3V7GUd3LkSwlDoNoPGH9YJ+s=; b=ktSJHFAO5/Axf6QARDnikawa6VEE9cmpAMKE3419jVYZx7Sj8N5ZgUIa1JYopRDX7n /34wtYd7wBjpEATCTGMfwy3gmz9wvGZ6/ETA/SE1ycmCYIyXZw98mEwMCOjXTe8O8E0f 55Cw9bzyO6OQC4ZQN+QRyQIPr55ymTNOaiVIUHJsG7meHQwhYoPARbft2e+A7zVTY+LA nX3EsQ/1zp4EtiKfOujvkTquEgBNEkhhRKrpqQhXL4vrOGHbCwxxx+3fEaEHQDzA84yn fIs8elOsfkJB1VEwxNLLx6j64DCIFD9bUxdUF+OnxQhGKz8Yy9BO877vwm84E0kpFBmD DxvQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV5rmiH7gDY9vKclxwdw1IVwBphZFjrTsF4kCloZ3Pi6GTLYU9G Yz7MKijWAtR2GcsgBH+2B5Stt98vL1s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwm57fz+MjQl0Ud7tlSr2BvCTw3iytQjtQt86jf+Ycpy7u2przO+sWdoXJKyctvNY625JV9ag== X-Received: by 2002:ad4:44a7:: with SMTP id n7mr18049787qvt.51.1566863803130; Mon, 26 Aug 2019 16:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.130.178] (pool-96-242-232-93.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net. [96.242.232.93]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e7sm6524799qtp.91.2019.08.26.16.56.42 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 26 Aug 2019 16:56:42 -0700 (PDT) To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org References: <13c5c36e-c84d-e020-d09e-51c8c502dc6d@kilonet.net> From: William Pechter Message-ID: <75a32043-4830-ba04-ee0f-023c5f5ade3f@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 19:56:41 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6EC7A73EE95EBBAA8010D58F" Content-Language: en-US Subject: Re: [TUHS] If not Linux, then what? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6EC7A73EE95EBBAA8010D58F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/26/2019 7:27 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 5:14 PM Arthur Krewat > wrote: > > https://linux.slashdot.org/story/19/08/26/0051234/celebrating-the-28th-anniversary-of-the-linux-kernel > > Leaving licensing and copyright issues out of this mental > exercise, what > would we have now if it wasn't for Linux? Not what you'd WANT it > to be, > although that can add to the discussion, but what WOULD it be? > > I'm not asking as a proponent of Linux. If anything, I was dragged > kicking and screaming into the current day and have begrudgingly > ceded > my server space to Linux. > > But if not for Linux, would it be BSD? A System V variant? Or (the > horror) Windows NT? > > > BSD was in decent enough shape at the time to run on PCs. Though it > fragmented early through no fault of Linux. And the AT&T lawsuit > created a lot of FUD in the area without actually protecting System V. > It's unclear if another thing would have popped up to fill the void... > Linux flourished in the confusion, but without it, it's hard to know > if something else would have been developed before the AT&T lawsuit > settled. > > Warner > > > I do understand that this has been discussed on the list before. I > think, however, it would make a good late-summer exercise. Or late > winter depending on where you are :) > > art k. > > I ran both FreeBSD (up through at least 4.11 (and have the Tshirt) and NetBSD back in the 0.8 0.9 time frame.  My final -- (I used to move between them based on stability and driver support) -- move to Linux was caused by a lack of drivers for the Lenovo Workstation that used the Marvell 88SE63XX which with 5 SAS/SATA drives on it and 3 available on the Intel SATA controller would've been a great in-house server. I really preferred the FreeBSD stability and docs back in the early 1990's -- but by 2000 my jobs were all going Linux (Red Hat Sysadmin mostly) and I figured the work was moving to supported RHEL.  One of the things that often made me migrate was the support (in the early days) of all the weird interfaced cdrom drives like the Panasonic and other pre-ATAPI stuff. I'm going to revisit the ZFS on Linux stuff when Ubuntu puts it in their installer.  That will finally get me what I want on the D20. Bill --------------6EC7A73EE95EBBAA8010D58F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 8/26/2019 7:27 PM, Warner Losh wrote:


On Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 5:14 PM Arthur Krewat <krewat@kilonet.net> wrote:
https://linux.slashdot.org/story/19/08/26/0051234/celebrating-the-28th-anniversary-of-the-linux-kernel

Leaving licensing and copyright issues out of this mental exercise, what
would we have now if it wasn't for Linux? Not what you'd WANT it to be,
although that can add to the discussion, but what WOULD it be?

I'm not asking as a proponent of Linux. If anything, I was dragged
kicking and screaming into the current day and have begrudgingly ceded
my server space to Linux.

But if not for Linux, would it be BSD? A System V variant? Or (the
horror) Windows NT?

BSD was in decent enough shape at the time to run on PCs. Though it fragmented early through no fault of Linux. And the AT&T lawsuit created a lot of FUD in the area without actually protecting System V. It's unclear if another thing would have popped up to fill the void... Linux flourished in the confusion, but without it, it's hard to know if something else would have been developed before the AT&T lawsuit settled.

Warner


I do understand that this has been discussed on the list before. I
think, however, it would make a good late-summer exercise. Or late
winter depending on where you are :)

art k.


I ran both FreeBSD (up through at least 4.11 (and have the Tshirt) and NetBSD back in the 0.8 0.9 time frame.  My final -- (I used to move between them based on stability and driver support) -- move to Linux was caused by a lack of drivers for the Lenovo Workstation that used the Marvell 88SE63XX which with 5 SAS/SATA drives on it and 3 available on the Intel SATA controller would've been a great in-house server.

I really preferred the FreeBSD stability and docs back in the early 1990's -- but by 2000 my jobs were all going Linux (Red Hat Sysadmin mostly) and I figured the work was moving to supported RHEL.  One of the things that often made me migrate was the support (in the early days) of all the weird interfaced cdrom drives like the Panasonic and other pre-ATAPI stuff.

I'm going to revisit the ZFS on Linux stuff when Ubuntu puts it in their installer.  That will finally get me what I want on the D20.

Bill

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