* [TUHS] Early Unix and Keyboard Skills @ 2022-11-02 2:36 steve jenkin 2022-11-02 6:53 ` [TUHS] " Michael Kjörling ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: steve jenkin @ 2022-11-02 2:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: TUHS I’m re-reading Brian Kernighan’s book on Early Unix (‘Unix: A History & Memoir’) and he mentions the (on disk) documentation that came with Unix - something that made it stand out, even for some decades. Doug McIlroy has commented on v2-v3 (1972-73?) being an extremely productive year for Ken & Dennis. But as well, they wrote papers and man pages, probably more. I’ve never heard anyone mention keyboard skills with the people of the CSRC - doesn’t anyone know? There’s at least one Internet meme that highly productive coders necessarily have good keyboard skills, which leads to also producing documentation or, at least, not avoiding it entirely, as often happens commercially. Underlying this is something I once caught as a random comment: The commonality of skills between Writing & Coding. Does anyone has any good refs for this crossover? Is it a real effect or a biased view. That great programmers are also “good writers”: takes time & focus, clarity of vision, deliberate intent and many revisions, chopping away the cruft that’s isn’t “the thing” and “polishing”, not rushing it out the door. Ken is famous for his brevity and succinct statements. Not sure if that’s a personal preference, a mastered skill or “economy in everything”. steve j ========= A Research UNIX Reader: Annotated Excerpts from the Programmer's Manual, 1971-1986 M.D. McIlroy <https://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~doug/reader.pdf> <https://archive.org/details/a_research_unix_reader/page/n13/mode/2up> pg 10 3.4. Languages CC (v2 page 52) V2 saw a burst of languages: a new TMG, a B that worked in both core-resident and software-paged versions, the completion of Fortran IV (Thompson and Ritchie), and Ritchie's first C, conceived as B with data types. In that furiously productive year Thompson and Ritchie together wrote and debugged about 100,000 lines of production code. ========= Programming's Dirtiest Little Secret Wednesday, September 10, 2008 <http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/09/programmings-dirtiest-little-secret.html> It's just simple arithmetic. If you spend more time hammering out code, then in order to keep up, you need to spend less time doing something else. But when it comes to programming, there are only so many things you can sacrifice! You can cut down on your documentation. You can cut down on commenting your code. You can cut down on email conversations and participation in online discussions, preferring group discussions and hallway conversations. And... well, that's about it. So guess what non-touch-typists sacrifice? All of it, man. They sacrifice all of it. Touch typists can spot an illtyperate programmer from a mile away. They don't even have to be in the same room. For starters, non-typists are almost invisible. They don't leave a footprint in our online community. ========= -- Steve Jenkin, IT Systems and Design 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 38, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA mailto:sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-02 2:36 [TUHS] Early Unix and Keyboard Skills steve jenkin @ 2022-11-02 6:53 ` Michael Kjörling 2022-11-02 7:11 ` Rob Pike 2022-11-02 12:13 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 2022-11-02 19:01 ` jason-tuhs 2 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Michael Kjörling @ 2022-11-02 6:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On 2 Nov 2022 13:36 +1100, from sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin): > There’s at least one Internet meme that highly productive coders > necessarily have good keyboard skills, which leads to also producing > documentation or, at least, not avoiding it entirely, as often > happens commercially. I wouldn't be so sure that this necessarily follows. Good keyboard skills definitely help with the mechanics of typing code as well as text, I'll certainly grant that; but someone can be a good typist yet write complete gibberish, or be a poor/slow typist and _by necessity_ need to consider each word that they use because typing an extra sentence takes them so long. If it takes you ten seconds to type out a normal sentence, revising becomes less of an issue than if typing out the same sentence takes a minute or a minute and a half. Also, certainly in my case and I doubt that I'm alone, a lot of my time "coding" isn't spent doing the mechanics of "writing code", but rather considering possible solutions to a problem, and what the consequences would be of different choices. That part of the software development process is essentially unaffected by how good one is as a typist, and I expect that the effect would be even more pronounced for someone using something like an ASR-33 and edlin, than a modern computer and visual editor. Again, the longer it takes to revise something, the more it makes sense to get it right on the first attempt, even if that means some preparatory work up-front. Writing documentation is probably more an issue of mindset and being allowed the time, than it is a question of how good one is as a typist. -- 🪶 Michael Kjörling 🏡 https://michael.kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?” ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-02 6:53 ` [TUHS] " Michael Kjörling @ 2022-11-02 7:11 ` Rob Pike 2022-11-02 13:28 ` Clem Cole ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Rob Pike @ 2022-11-02 7:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Michael Kjörling; +Cc: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3139 bytes --] Neither ken nor dmr were impressive typists. In fact few programmers were then, at least of my acquaintance. In the 1970s Bell Labs created the Getset - think of it as an early wired smartphone, or a Minitel, with a little screen and keyboard. It cost quite a bit but was a cool gadget so the executives all got one. But, in fascinating contrast to the Blackberry a generation later, no one would touch it - literally - because it had a keyboard, and keyboards were for (female) secretaries, not (male) executives. The product, although well ahead of its time, was a complete failure due to the cultural bias then. There may be a good sociology paper in there somewhere. I'm not saying K&D shared this blinkered view, not at all, just that typing skills were not de facto back then. Some of the folks were even two-finger jabbers. I was a little younger and a faster typist than most of the others, and I am not a good typist by any modern standard. bwk was one who could smash out the text faster than many. His having learned on a teletype, the keyboard would resound with the impact of his forceful keystrokes. -rob On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 5:53 PM Michael Kjörling <e5655f30a07f@ewoof.net> wrote: > On 2 Nov 2022 13:36 +1100, from sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin): > > There’s at least one Internet meme that highly productive coders > > necessarily have good keyboard skills, which leads to also producing > > documentation or, at least, not avoiding it entirely, as often > > happens commercially. > > I wouldn't be so sure that this necessarily follows. Good keyboard > skills definitely help with the mechanics of typing code as well as > text, I'll certainly grant that; but someone can be a good typist yet > write complete gibberish, or be a poor/slow typist and _by necessity_ > need to consider each word that they use because typing an extra > sentence takes them so long. If it takes you ten seconds to type out a > normal sentence, revising becomes less of an issue than if typing out > the same sentence takes a minute or a minute and a half. > > Also, certainly in my case and I doubt that I'm alone, a lot of my > time "coding" isn't spent doing the mechanics of "writing code", but > rather considering possible solutions to a problem, and what the > consequences would be of different choices. That part of the software > development process is essentially unaffected by how good one is as a > typist, and I expect that the effect would be even more pronounced for > someone using something like an ASR-33 and edlin, than a modern > computer and visual editor. Again, the longer it takes to revise > something, the more it makes sense to get it right on the first > attempt, even if that means some preparatory work up-front. > > Writing documentation is probably more an issue of mindset and being > allowed the time, than it is a question of how good one is as a > typist. > > -- > 🪶 Michael Kjörling 🏡 https://michael.kjorling.se > “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?” > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4665 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-02 7:11 ` Rob Pike @ 2022-11-02 13:28 ` Clem Cole 2022-11-03 21:51 ` Stuff Received 2023-08-05 23:53 ` scj 2 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2022-11-02 13:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Rob Pike; +Cc: Michael Kjörling, tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 809 bytes --] On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 3:13 AM Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote > bwk was one who could smash out the text faster than many. His having > learned on a teletype, the keyboard would resound with the impact of his > forceful keystrokes. > Funny, I remember the first time I got to use something other than an ASR33 or an ASR28 sometime time in the early 1970s I think. IIRC It was a Tek 4010, but the memory at the time of being amazed that I did not need so much energy to push the keys and how quiet it was. Before then I had equated computing with the feel, sounds, and machine oil smells of Teletype products. That said, when the VT52 came out in the mid-70s the DEC keyboard on it was far from the feel of the IBM Selectric III - which was considered the 'touch typist standard' ᐧ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1717 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-02 7:11 ` Rob Pike 2022-11-02 13:28 ` Clem Cole @ 2022-11-03 21:51 ` Stuff Received 2023-08-05 23:53 ` scj 2 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Stuff Received @ 2022-11-03 21:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On 2022-11-02 03:11, Rob Pike wrote: > Neither ken nor dmr were impressive typists. In fact few programmers > were then, at least of my acquaintance. > > In the 1970s Bell Labs created the Getset - think of it as an early > wired smartphone, or a Minitel, with a little screen and keyboard. It > cost quite a bit but was a cool gadget so the executives all got one. > But, in fascinating contrast to the Blackberry a generation later, no > one would touch it - literally - because it had a keyboard, and > keyboards were for (female) secretaries, not (male) executives. The > product, although well ahead of its time, was a complete failure due > to the cultural bias then. > > There may be a good sociology paper in there somewhere. I remember the dep't administrators having colour terminals connected to the mainframe, and all they did was look up the occasional telephone number, whilst the "secretaries" (as they were called then) being given b&w terminals for work. > I'm not saying K&D shared this blinkered view, not at all, just that > typing skills were not de facto back then. Some of the folks were even > two-finger jabbers. I was a little younger and a faster typist than > most of the others, and I am not a good typist by any modern standard. > > bwk was one who could smash out the text faster than many. His having > learned on a teletype, the keyboard would resound with the impact of > his forceful keystrokes. I learnt in high school on a manual typewriter so I can appreciate that. (Learning on a manual really builds up the muscles on one's little fingers. #6-) N. > > -rob > > [...] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-02 7:11 ` Rob Pike 2022-11-02 13:28 ` Clem Cole 2022-11-03 21:51 ` Stuff Received @ 2023-08-05 23:53 ` scj 2023-08-06 0:22 ` KenUnix 2023-08-06 8:37 ` Ronald Natalie 2 siblings, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: scj @ 2023-08-05 23:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Rob Pike; +Cc: Michael Kjörling, tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3623 bytes --] I took typing in Summer School. My parents bought me a typewriter with mathematical symbols on it, which was almost worthless, and I had to improvise to get some of the standard characters (for example, the semicolon was comma/backspace/colon). By the time I was talking to computers ( Model 33 tty) I was happy that I couldn't type faster because it was impossible on that thing. Steve --- On 2022-11-02 00:11, Rob Pike wrote: > Neither ken nor dmr were impressive typists. In fact few programmers were then, at least of my acquaintance. > > In the 1970s Bell Labs created the Getset - think of it as an early wired smartphone, or a Minitel, with a little screen and keyboard. It cost quite a bit but was a cool gadget so the executives all got one. But, in fascinating contrast to the Blackberry a generation later, no one would touch it - literally - because it had a keyboard, and keyboards were for (female) secretaries, not (male) executives. The product, although well ahead of its time, was a complete failure due to the cultural bias then. > > There may be a good sociology paper in there somewhere. > > I'm not saying K&D shared this blinkered view, not at all, just that typing skills were not de facto back then. Some of the folks were even two-finger jabbers. I was a little younger and a faster typist than most of the others, and I am not a good typist by any modern standard. > > bwk was one who could smash out the text faster than many. His having learned on a teletype, the keyboard would resound with the impact of his forceful keystrokes. > > -rob > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 5:53 PM Michael Kjörling <e5655f30a07f@ewoof.net> wrote: > >> On 2 Nov 2022 13:36 +1100, from sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin): >>> There's at least one Internet meme that highly productive coders >>> necessarily have good keyboard skills, which leads to also producing >>> documentation or, at least, not avoiding it entirely, as often >>> happens commercially. >> >> I wouldn't be so sure that this necessarily follows. Good keyboard >> skills definitely help with the mechanics of typing code as well as >> text, I'll certainly grant that; but someone can be a good typist yet >> write complete gibberish, or be a poor/slow typist and _by necessity_ >> need to consider each word that they use because typing an extra >> sentence takes them so long. If it takes you ten seconds to type out a >> normal sentence, revising becomes less of an issue than if typing out >> the same sentence takes a minute or a minute and a half. >> >> Also, certainly in my case and I doubt that I'm alone, a lot of my >> time "coding" isn't spent doing the mechanics of "writing code", but >> rather considering possible solutions to a problem, and what the >> consequences would be of different choices. That part of the software >> development process is essentially unaffected by how good one is as a >> typist, and I expect that the effect would be even more pronounced for >> someone using something like an ASR-33 and edlin, than a modern >> computer and visual editor. Again, the longer it takes to revise >> something, the more it makes sense to get it right on the first >> attempt, even if that means some preparatory work up-front. >> >> Writing documentation is probably more an issue of mindset and being >> allowed the time, than it is a question of how good one is as a >> typist. >> >> -- >> 🪶 Michael Kjörling 🏡 https://michael.kjorling.se >> "Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?" [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5743 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2023-08-05 23:53 ` scj @ 2023-08-06 0:22 ` KenUnix 2023-08-06 0:43 ` Larry McVoy 2023-08-06 8:37 ` Ronald Natalie 1 sibling, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: KenUnix @ 2023-08-06 0:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: scj; +Cc: Michael Kjörling, tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3933 bytes --] The thing I like is VI because it is almost universal. Windows, Linux, BSD and Unix. In a pinch I use "ed". Sad to hear today that its creator has passed away. --Ken On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 7:53 PM <scj@yaccman.com> wrote: > I took typing in Summer School. My parents bought me a typewriter with > mathematical symbols on it, which was almost worthless, and I had to > improvise to get some of the standard characters (for example, the > semicolon was comma/backspace/colon). By the time I was talking to > computers ( Model 33 tty) I was happy that I couldn't type faster because > it was impossible on that thing. > > Steve > --- > > > > On 2022-11-02 00:11, Rob Pike wrote: > > Neither ken nor dmr were impressive typists. In fact few programmers were > then, at least of my acquaintance. > > In the 1970s Bell Labs created the Getset - think of it as an early wired > smartphone, or a Minitel, with a little screen and keyboard. It cost quite > a bit but was a cool gadget so the executives all got one. But, in > fascinating contrast to the Blackberry a generation later, no one would > touch it - literally - because it had a keyboard, and keyboards were for > (female) secretaries, not (male) executives. The product, although well > ahead of its time, was a complete failure due to the cultural bias then. > > There may be a good sociology paper in there somewhere. > > I'm not saying K&D shared this blinkered view, not at all, just that > typing skills were not de facto back then. Some of the folks were even > two-finger jabbers. I was a little younger and a faster typist than most of > the others, and I am not a good typist by any modern standard. > > bwk was one who could smash out the text faster than many. His having > learned on a teletype, the keyboard would resound with the impact of his > forceful keystrokes. > > -rob > > > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 5:53 PM Michael Kjörling <e5655f30a07f@ewoof.net> > wrote: > > On 2 Nov 2022 13:36 +1100, from sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin): > > There's at least one Internet meme that highly productive coders > > necessarily have good keyboard skills, which leads to also producing > > documentation or, at least, not avoiding it entirely, as often > > happens commercially. > > I wouldn't be so sure that this necessarily follows. Good keyboard > skills definitely help with the mechanics of typing code as well as > text, I'll certainly grant that; but someone can be a good typist yet > write complete gibberish, or be a poor/slow typist and _by necessity_ > need to consider each word that they use because typing an extra > sentence takes them so long. If it takes you ten seconds to type out a > normal sentence, revising becomes less of an issue than if typing out > the same sentence takes a minute or a minute and a half. > > Also, certainly in my case and I doubt that I'm alone, a lot of my > time "coding" isn't spent doing the mechanics of "writing code", but > rather considering possible solutions to a problem, and what the > consequences would be of different choices. That part of the software > development process is essentially unaffected by how good one is as a > typist, and I expect that the effect would be even more pronounced for > someone using something like an ASR-33 and edlin, than a modern > computer and visual editor. Again, the longer it takes to revise > something, the more it makes sense to get it right on the first > attempt, even if that means some preparatory work up-front. > > Writing documentation is probably more an issue of mindset and being > allowed the time, than it is a question of how good one is as a > typist. > > -- > 🪶 Michael Kjörling 🏡 https://michael.kjorling.se > "Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?" > > -- End of line JOB TERMINATED [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6049 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2023-08-06 0:22 ` KenUnix @ 2023-08-06 0:43 ` Larry McVoy 2023-08-06 14:51 ` Leah Neukirchen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2023-08-06 0:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: KenUnix; +Cc: Michael Kj??rling, tuhs Just in case there is confusion, vi was Bill Joy, Bostic did nvi (which was open source and bug for bug compat), Bram did vim, which I think was a clean room version of vi with a huge bunch of added goodness. On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 08:22:17PM -0400, KenUnix wrote: > The thing I like is VI because it is almost universal. Windows, Linux, BSD > and Unix. > > In a pinch I use "ed". > > Sad to hear today that its creator has passed away. > > --Ken > > > On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 7:53???PM <scj@yaccman.com> wrote: > > > I took typing in Summer School. My parents bought me a typewriter with > > mathematical symbols on it, which was almost worthless, and I had to > > improvise to get some of the standard characters (for example, the > > semicolon was comma/backspace/colon). By the time I was talking to > > computers ( Model 33 tty) I was happy that I couldn't type faster because > > it was impossible on that thing. > > > > Steve > > --- > > > > > > > > On 2022-11-02 00:11, Rob Pike wrote: > > > > Neither ken nor dmr were impressive typists. In fact few programmers were > > then, at least of my acquaintance. > > > > In the 1970s Bell Labs created the Getset - think of it as an early wired > > smartphone, or a Minitel, with a little screen and keyboard. It cost quite > > a bit but was a cool gadget so the executives all got one. But, in > > fascinating contrast to the Blackberry a generation later, no one would > > touch it - literally - because it had a keyboard, and keyboards were for > > (female) secretaries, not (male) executives. The product, although well > > ahead of its time, was a complete failure due to the cultural bias then. > > > > There may be a good sociology paper in there somewhere. > > > > I'm not saying K&D shared this blinkered view, not at all, just that > > typing skills were not de facto back then. Some of the folks were even > > two-finger jabbers. I was a little younger and a faster typist than most of > > the others, and I am not a good typist by any modern standard. > > > > bwk was one who could smash out the text faster than many. His having > > learned on a teletype, the keyboard would resound with the impact of his > > forceful keystrokes. > > > > -rob > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 5:53 PM Michael Kj??rling <e5655f30a07f@ewoof.net> > > wrote: > > > > On 2 Nov 2022 13:36 +1100, from sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin): > > > There's at least one Internet meme that highly productive coders > > > necessarily have good keyboard skills, which leads to also producing > > > documentation or, at least, not avoiding it entirely, as often > > > happens commercially. > > > > I wouldn't be so sure that this necessarily follows. Good keyboard > > skills definitely help with the mechanics of typing code as well as > > text, I'll certainly grant that; but someone can be a good typist yet > > write complete gibberish, or be a poor/slow typist and _by necessity_ > > need to consider each word that they use because typing an extra > > sentence takes them so long. If it takes you ten seconds to type out a > > normal sentence, revising becomes less of an issue than if typing out > > the same sentence takes a minute or a minute and a half. > > > > Also, certainly in my case and I doubt that I'm alone, a lot of my > > time "coding" isn't spent doing the mechanics of "writing code", but > > rather considering possible solutions to a problem, and what the > > consequences would be of different choices. That part of the software > > development process is essentially unaffected by how good one is as a > > typist, and I expect that the effect would be even more pronounced for > > someone using something like an ASR-33 and edlin, than a modern > > computer and visual editor. Again, the longer it takes to revise > > something, the more it makes sense to get it right on the first > > attempt, even if that means some preparatory work up-front. > > > > Writing documentation is probably more an issue of mindset and being > > allowed the time, than it is a question of how good one is as a > > typist. > > > > -- > > ???? Michael Kj??rling ???? https://michael.kjorling.se > > "Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?" > > > > > > -- > End of line > JOB TERMINATED -- --- Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2023-08-06 0:43 ` Larry McVoy @ 2023-08-06 14:51 ` Leah Neukirchen 2023-08-06 15:01 ` Larry McVoy 2023-08-06 16:31 ` Clem Cole 0 siblings, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Leah Neukirchen @ 2023-08-06 14:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: KenUnix, Michael Kj??rling, tuhs Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> writes: > Just in case there is confusion, vi was Bill Joy, Bostic did nvi (which was > open source and bug for bug compat), Bram did vim, which I think was a > clean room version of vi with a huge bunch of added goodness. Vim was based on Stevie, an Atari ST vi clone he ported to the Amiga 2000. -- Leah Neukirchen <leah@vuxu.org> https://leahneukirchen.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2023-08-06 14:51 ` Leah Neukirchen @ 2023-08-06 15:01 ` Larry McVoy 2023-08-06 16:31 ` Clem Cole 1 sibling, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2023-08-06 15:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Leah Neukirchen; +Cc: KenUnix, Michael Kj??rling, tuhs On Sun, Aug 06, 2023 at 04:51:04PM +0200, Leah Neukirchen wrote: > Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> writes: > > > Just in case there is confusion, vi was Bill Joy, Bostic did nvi (which was > > open source and bug for bug compat), Bram did vim, which I think was a > > clean room version of vi with a huge bunch of added goodness. > > Vim was based on Stevie, an Atari ST vi clone he ported to the Amiga 2000. I remember Stevie. In my early days at Sun, on 4MB machines, I was working on log files about the size of memory so the machine swapped like crazy just to take a look. I looked at Stevie but then settled on xvi. I changed the libc string functions to treat \n as well as \0 as a string terminator, changed how xvi read in a file to use mmap() instead. It wasn't really that hard but then I had a vi clone that could work on files twice as large with no swapping. The read only path was super easy to do, I made the write path work as well, that took a little tinkering because you couldn't modify the lines in place (think changing case on a line which xvi was happy to do in place but I couldn't because I'd be changing the file data which means :q! wouldn't do what you wanted). It's of little interest now but at the time, it was a huge win for me, I was working on performance and looking at log files was a big part of that. Most of us remember what it was like to work on a working set that was bigger than memory, it sucked. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2023-08-06 14:51 ` Leah Neukirchen 2023-08-06 15:01 ` Larry McVoy @ 2023-08-06 16:31 ` Clem Cole 2023-08-06 18:20 ` Jon Forrest 1 sibling, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2023-08-06 16:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Leah Neukirchen; +Cc: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2122 bytes --] On Sun, Aug 6, 2023 at 10:51 AM Leah Neukirchen <leah@vuxu.org> wrote: > Vim was based on Stevie, an Atari ST vi clone he ported to the Amiga 2000. > Thank you. I also remember stevie and that stevie beget vim make so much sense. It was one of the clones I ran back in the day. The point is that there were (are) a number of vi clones. Which is why I started to switch to it. It ran on everything from small 8-bit systems on up. Particularly on the micros, they all had something akin to what Microsoft called edlin, often just called edit. If you knew UNIX ed(1) or any other editor from the old GED family from the 1960s, chances were you could make it do something -- but it was PITA as each was a bit different So copies of the editors from the larger [often DEC based systems] started to appear on the smaller and smaller machines. And vi seemed to be a pretty popular as a starting point[I always suspect Webb Miller's book had something to do with that since 's' was so small and using it to add missing vi features was not terrible]. That said, there was an IBM PC/386 "MS-DOS" version of vi that required ANSI.SYS that was on the market for about $50-$100. It was 'bug for bug' compatible with Joy's version. I always suspected that unlike Keith, they just took the Vax code, stripped out termcap so it did not need an external terminal database, hard coded it for ANSI.SYS, then ran it through the PHARLAP C/386 subsystem. Unlike any of the other 'clones' until nvi -- it was the only one that had some of the same wonkiness. As I understand it from him, Keith did nvi(1) because Joy's original work was based on the v6 ed(1). As part of Keith's effort to try to remove any core code in the BSD releases that had any AT&T source taint, it was just easier to start over. The Berkeley Shell [in 1BSD] beget the C Shell, was derived from Ken's sh in v5 and v6. I think Keith/Kirk et al felt that any of Ken's original code had long been removed - whereas ex(1) (vi is the actually the VIsual command for ex) probably had a lot of core ed(1). Clem ᐧ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3794 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2023-08-06 16:31 ` Clem Cole @ 2023-08-06 18:20 ` Jon Forrest 2023-08-07 4:56 ` Adam Thornton 0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Jon Forrest @ 2023-08-06 18:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On 8/6/2023 9:31 AM, Clem Cole wrote: > And vi seemed to be a pretty popular as a starting point[I always > suspect Webb Miller's book had something to do with that since 's' > was so small and using it to add missing vi features was not > terrible]. Every time this book is mentioned on TUHS I announce that I have a copy of it for sale. Contact me off-list if you're interested. Jon ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2023-08-06 18:20 ` Jon Forrest @ 2023-08-07 4:56 ` Adam Thornton 0 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Adam Thornton @ 2023-08-07 4:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 739 bytes --] Webb Miller's book is also available through Inter-Library Loan, which is how I got my hands on it and made my own copy through the decidedly low-tech solution of "abusing the office copier when everyone else had gone home." On Sun, Aug 6, 2023 at 11:20 AM Jon Forrest <nobozo@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 8/6/2023 9:31 AM, Clem Cole wrote: > > > And vi seemed to be a pretty popular as a starting point[I always > > suspect Webb Miller's book had something to do with that since 's' > > was so small and using it to add missing vi features was not > > terrible]. > > Every time this book is mentioned on TUHS I announce that I have > a copy of it for sale. Contact me off-list if you're interested. > > Jon > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1111 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2023-08-05 23:53 ` scj 2023-08-06 0:22 ` KenUnix @ 2023-08-06 8:37 ` Ronald Natalie 1 sibling, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Ronald Natalie @ 2023-08-06 8:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs; +Cc: Michael Kjörling [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 447 bytes --] When my mother asked my fifth grade teacher what she should do about my bad handwriting, she was told to get me a typewriter. I spent one summer school session taking typing. Little did we know thet in a few years, being able to type 60 WPM would be very valuable to my career. Sometimes my employees were pretty impressed when we couldn’t get data moved any other way that I’d sit down with the printout and just retype it. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1305 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-02 2:36 [TUHS] Early Unix and Keyboard Skills steve jenkin 2022-11-02 6:53 ` [TUHS] " Michael Kjörling @ 2022-11-02 12:13 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 2022-11-02 12:24 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 2022-11-02 12:26 ` John P. Linderman 2022-11-02 19:01 ` jason-tuhs 2 siblings, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2022-11-02 12:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: steve jenkin; +Cc: TUHS steve jenkin wrote in <E212D205-B786-4441-A95B-B5F5546B5C6C@canb.auug.org.au>: ... |I’ve never heard anyone mention keyboard skills with the people of \ |the CSRC - doesn’t anyone know? What i personally find more fascinating (given that -- in the right condition -- i type pretty fast even in total darkness but darkest possible monitor brightness) is the multitaskability some show, in respect to combination of mouse and keyboard (or even dual-mouse if i remember a message of Rob Pike right). I once watched a video on the google tube of Russ Cox dancing acme doing go testing, could be it is [1]. When he starts to actually work a bit (late on iirc), that is thrilling, i could never select / paste (kill snarf yank what do i know) that fast. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP1xVpMPn8M --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-02 12:13 ` Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2022-11-02 12:24 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 2022-11-02 20:35 ` Ron Natalie 2022-11-02 12:26 ` John P. Linderman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2022-11-02 12:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: steve jenkin; +Cc: TUHS Steffen Nurpmeso wrote in <20221102121352.MhcLw%steffen@sdaoden.eu>: |steve jenkin wrote in | <E212D205-B786-4441-A95B-B5F5546B5C6C@canb.auug.org.au>: | ... ||I’ve never heard anyone mention keyboard skills with the people of \ ||the CSRC - doesn’t anyone know? | |What i personally find more fascinating (given that -- in the |right condition -- i type pretty fast even in total darkness but |darkest possible monitor brightness) is the multitaskability some |show, in respect to combination of mouse and keyboard (or even |dual-mouse if i remember a message of Rob Pike right). I once ... I once had a very small infrared / PS/2 keyboard with a track ball at the upper right corner, and the buttons on the upper left) where middle finger and forefinger only had to be moved a bit, but the heel of hand(s) could remain (only twisted a bit). That allowed for pretty good precision and speed. But i think it was still not that of Russ Cox and acme and external mouse/mice. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-02 12:24 ` Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2022-11-02 20:35 ` Ron Natalie 0 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Ron Natalie @ 2022-11-02 20:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Steffen Nurpmeso; +Cc: steve jenkin, TUHS My elementary school teacher recommended to my mother that she buy me a typewriter and I took typing in summer school. Little did we know being able to type 60wpm would end up being. > On Nov 2, 2022, at 05:24, Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu> wrote: > > Steffen Nurpmeso wrote in > <20221102121352.MhcLw%steffen@sdaoden.eu>: > |steve jenkin wrote in > | <E212D205-B786-4441-A95B-B5F5546B5C6C@canb.auug.org.au>: > | ... > ||I’ve never heard anyone mention keyboard skills with the people of \ > ||the CSRC - doesn’t anyone know? > | > |What i personally find more fascinating (given that -- in the > |right condition -- i type pretty fast even in total darkness but > |darkest possible monitor brightness) is the multitaskability some > |show, in respect to combination of mouse and keyboard (or even > |dual-mouse if i remember a message of Rob Pike right). I once > ... > > I once had a very small infrared / PS/2 keyboard with a track ball > at the upper right corner, and the buttons on the upper left) > where middle finger and forefinger only had to be moved a bit, but > the heel of hand(s) could remain (only twisted a bit). That > allowed for pretty good precision and speed. But i think it was > still not that of Russ Cox and acme and external mouse/mice. > > --steffen > | > |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, > |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one > |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off > |(By Robert Gernhardt) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-02 12:13 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 2022-11-02 12:24 ` Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2022-11-02 12:26 ` John P. Linderman 2022-11-02 13:07 ` Larry Stewart 2022-11-02 13:27 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 1 sibling, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: John P. Linderman @ 2022-11-02 12:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: steve jenkin, TUHS [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1758 bytes --] When I was in high school (in the early sixties) I tried to sign up for typing, which was taught on manual typewriters. I was told that the class was for girls only, and I was turned away. I never did develop good typing skills. I'm pretty much a two-fingered typist. Ironically, I have probably done more typing than 90% of the female classmates who were allowed to take the class. Precision figured mightily in those days, which may also have pre-dated white-out. Eliminating an error was a big deal. Now it's dead easy, and auto-correct has already fixed several errors in this message. On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 8:14 AM Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu> wrote: > steve jenkin wrote in > <E212D205-B786-4441-A95B-B5F5546B5C6C@canb.auug.org.au>: > ... > |I’ve never heard anyone mention keyboard skills with the people of \ > |the CSRC - doesn’t anyone know? > > What i personally find more fascinating (given that -- in the > right condition -- i type pretty fast even in total darkness but > darkest possible monitor brightness) is the multitaskability some > show, in respect to combination of mouse and keyboard (or even > dual-mouse if i remember a message of Rob Pike right). I once > watched a video on the google tube of Russ Cox dancing acme doing > go testing, could be it is [1]. When he starts to actually work > a bit (late on iirc), that is thrilling, i could never select / > paste (kill snarf yank what do i know) that fast. > > [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP1xVpMPn8M > > --steffen > | > |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, > |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one > |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off > |(By Robert Gernhardt) > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2480 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-02 12:26 ` John P. Linderman @ 2022-11-02 13:07 ` Larry Stewart 2022-11-02 13:16 ` Larry McVoy 2022-11-02 13:27 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 1 sibling, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Larry Stewart @ 2022-11-02 13:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: John P. Linderman; +Cc: steve jenkin, TUHS [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2303 bytes --] In 1969 at the end of 9 th grade I got a foot injury that kept me on crutches for the summer so I took summer school typing. very worthwhile. I think 90% of the class were young women. My parents encouraged it mostly because it would make writing term papers much easier, which it did, but of course it had many computing benefits as well. the ancient typewriters had really heavy keys with long strokes. Much like teletypes. > On Nov 2, 2022, at 8:27 AM, John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl@gmail.com> wrote: > > > When I was in high school (in the early sixties) I tried to sign up for typing, which was taught on manual typewriters. I was told that the class was for girls only, and I was turned away. I never did develop good typing skills. I'm pretty much a two-fingered typist. Ironically, I have probably done more typing than 90% of the female classmates who were allowed to take the class. > > Precision figured mightily in those days, which may also have pre-dated white-out. Eliminating an error was a big deal. Now it's dead easy, and auto-correct has already fixed several errors in this message. > >> On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 8:14 AM Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu> wrote: >> steve jenkin wrote in >> <E212D205-B786-4441-A95B-B5F5546B5C6C@canb.auug.org.au>: >> ... >> |I’ve never heard anyone mention keyboard skills with the people of \ >> |the CSRC - doesn’t anyone know? >> >> What i personally find more fascinating (given that -- in the >> right condition -- i type pretty fast even in total darkness but >> darkest possible monitor brightness) is the multitaskability some >> show, in respect to combination of mouse and keyboard (or even >> dual-mouse if i remember a message of Rob Pike right). I once >> watched a video on the google tube of Russ Cox dancing acme doing >> go testing, could be it is [1]. When he starts to actually work >> a bit (late on iirc), that is thrilling, i could never select / >> paste (kill snarf yank what do i know) that fast. >> >> [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP1xVpMPn8M >> >> --steffen >> | >> |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, >> |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one >> |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off >> |(By Robert Gernhardt) [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3383 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-02 13:07 ` Larry Stewart @ 2022-11-02 13:16 ` Larry McVoy 0 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2022-11-02 13:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry Stewart; +Cc: steve jenkin, TUHS Self taught touch typer here. I frequently compare typing to running my excavator. If I don't think about what I'm doing, everything works, I can type in the dark (doing that right now) but as soon as I start thinking about where the keys are (or what the joysticks on the excavator do) it all goes to shit. And getting back to writing, I personally feel like if you write the man page first, it settles my messy brain into a good space, the code comes easier after writing docs. I view writing docs as sort of the first pass of thinking about how to write the code. Doesn't always work but it is pleasant when it does. On Wed, Nov 02, 2022 at 09:07:31AM -0400, Larry Stewart wrote: > In 1969 at the end of 9 th grade I got a foot injury that kept me on crutches for the summer so I took summer school typing. very worthwhile. I think 90% of the class were young women. My parents encouraged it mostly because it would make writing term papers much easier, which it did, but of course it had many computing benefits as well. > the ancient typewriters had really heavy keys with long strokes. Much like teletypes. > > > On Nov 2, 2022, at 8:27 AM, John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > ??? > > When I was in high school (in the early sixties) I tried to sign up for typing, which was taught on manual typewriters. I was told that the class was for girls only, and I was turned away. I never did develop good typing skills. I'm pretty much a two-fingered typist. Ironically, I have probably done more typing than 90% of the female classmates who were allowed to take the class. > > > > Precision figured mightily in those days, which may also have pre-dated white-out. Eliminating an error was a big deal. Now it's dead easy, and auto-correct has already fixed several errors in this message. > > > >> On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 8:14 AM Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu> wrote: > >> steve jenkin wrote in > >> <E212D205-B786-4441-A95B-B5F5546B5C6C@canb.auug.org.au>: > >> ... > >> |I???ve never heard anyone mention keyboard skills with the people of \ > >> |the CSRC - doesn???t anyone know? > >> > >> What i personally find more fascinating (given that -- in the > >> right condition -- i type pretty fast even in total darkness but > >> darkest possible monitor brightness) is the multitaskability some > >> show, in respect to combination of mouse and keyboard (or even > >> dual-mouse if i remember a message of Rob Pike right). I once > >> watched a video on the google tube of Russ Cox dancing acme doing > >> go testing, could be it is [1]. When he starts to actually work > >> a bit (late on iirc), that is thrilling, i could never select / > >> paste (kill snarf yank what do i know) that fast. > >> > >> [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP1xVpMPn8M > >> > >> --steffen > >> | > >> |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, > >> |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one > >> |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off > >> |(By Robert Gernhardt) -- --- Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-02 12:26 ` John P. Linderman 2022-11-02 13:07 ` Larry Stewart @ 2022-11-02 13:27 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 1 sibling, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2022-11-02 13:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: John P. Linderman; +Cc: steve jenkin, TUHS John P. Linderman wrote in <CAC0cEp9v1ZhTgEFMNGMGH1GhXo9V87QiOPfbbCuMG1y6D9Esaw@mail.gmail.com>: |When I was in high school (in the early sixties) I tried to sign up for |typing, which was taught on manual typewriters. I was told that the class |was for girls only, and I was turned away. I never did develop good typing |skills. I'm pretty much a two-fingered typist. Ironically, I have probably This can be a winner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4nX0Xrn-wo (The classic.) |done more typing than 90% of the female classmates who were allowed to take |the class. These machine-gunners are in another league per se from my modest point of view. Ten finger thunderstorms. |Precision figured mightily in those days, which may also have pre-dated |white-out. Eliminating an error was a big deal. Now it's dead easy, and |auto-correct has already fixed several errors in this message. Since i now own a (used!!) smartphone i unfortunately have to live with such things when doing my little bit of SMS messaging. It is terrible. Ooften do i have to delete the word entirely to unlock the screen. Ach! for the Asians who commit suicide because they messed up a calligraphical painting. It seems to me TUHS has lost its Sender: message header btw, which longs for fixing as it is SHOULD in RFC 5322 in this ML case (except for Warren himself, maybe). --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-02 2:36 [TUHS] Early Unix and Keyboard Skills steve jenkin 2022-11-02 6:53 ` [TUHS] " Michael Kjörling 2022-11-02 12:13 ` Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2022-11-02 19:01 ` jason-tuhs 2022-11-02 19:20 ` John P. Linderman 2 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: jason-tuhs @ 2022-11-02 19:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: steve jenkin; +Cc: TUHS [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 576 bytes --] > I’ve never heard anyone mention keyboard skills with the people of the > CSRC - doesn’t anyone know? https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/AUUGN/AUUGN-V05.4.pdf (p23) > History tells us that the guys who designed [UNIX] did their own typing > into the machine. It seems to me that because of this, the main reason > that UNIX enjoys/suffers from terse input and output is not through any > intellectual design decisions made at some early stage but because the > UNIX designers were just bad typists working on slow peripherals. -Jason ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-02 19:01 ` jason-tuhs @ 2022-11-02 19:20 ` John P. Linderman 2022-11-03 1:47 ` Ronald Natalie 0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: John P. Linderman @ 2022-11-02 19:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: jason-tuhs; +Cc: steve jenkin, TUHS [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 919 bytes --] On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 3:02 PM <jason-tuhs@shalott.net> wrote: > > > I’ve never heard anyone mention keyboard skills with the people of the > > CSRC - doesn’t anyone know? > > > https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/AUUGN/AUUGN-V05.4.pdf (p23) > > > History tells us that the guys who designed [UNIX] did their own typing > > into the machine. It seems to me that because of this, the main reason > > that UNIX enjoys/suffers from terse input and output is not through any > > intellectual design decisions made at some early stage but because the > > UNIX designers were just bad typists working on slow peripherals. > > > -Jason > Mostly rampant speculation on my part, but with 110 baud modems, 10 characters per second right?, and added delays for carriage returns, it was the peripherals that encouraged brevity. Code would be viewed multiple times, but entered roughly once. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1630 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-02 19:20 ` John P. Linderman @ 2022-11-03 1:47 ` Ronald Natalie 2022-11-03 1:59 ` Dave Horsfall ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Ronald Natalie @ 2022-11-03 1:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: John P. Linderman, jason-tuhs; +Cc: steve jenkin, TUHS [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1563 bytes --] I’m not sure the model 33 required a carriage return delay. At 110 baud it had plenty of time to move the carriage. back. Other printers (especially faster ones) weren’t so lucky, but the LA36 decwriter had a catchup mode to print the backlog after a return. The LA120 was boustrophedonic so returns weren’t as much of an issue. ------ Original Message ------ From "John P. Linderman" <jpl.jpl@gmail.com> To jason-tuhs@shalott.net Cc "steve jenkin" <sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au>; "TUHS" <tuhs@tuhs.org> Date 11/2/2022 12:20:12 PM Subject [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills > > >On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 3:02 PM <jason-tuhs@shalott.net> wrote: >> >> > I’ve never heard anyone mention keyboard skills with the people of >>the >> > CSRC - doesn’t anyone know? >> >> >>https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/AUUGN/AUUGN-V05.4.pdf (p23) >> >> > History tells us that the guys who designed [UNIX] did their own >>typing >> > into the machine. It seems to me that because of this, the main >>reason >> > that UNIX enjoys/suffers from terse input and output is not through >>any >> > intellectual design decisions made at some early stage but because >>the >> > UNIX designers were just bad typists working on slow peripherals. >> >> >> -Jason > >Mostly rampant speculation on my part, but with 110 baud modems, 10 >characters per second right?, >and added delays for carriage returns, it was the peripherals that >encouraged brevity. Code would be >viewed multiple times, but entered roughly once. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3536 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-03 1:47 ` Ronald Natalie @ 2022-11-03 1:59 ` Dave Horsfall 2022-11-03 3:01 ` Clem Cole 2022-11-03 15:17 ` Paul Winalski 2 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Dave Horsfall @ 2022-11-03 1:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 479 bytes --] On Thu, 3 Nov 2022, Ronald Natalie wrote: [...] > Other printers (especially faster ones) weren’t so lucky, but the LA36 > decwriter had a catchup mode to print the backlog after a return. Yep; the head went twice as fast to catch up. Wasn't there a method of locking it into that mode, but then requiring flow control? > The LA120 was boustrophedonic so returns weren’t as much of an issue. ISTR that it required a driver to utilise that mode. -- Dave ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-03 1:47 ` Ronald Natalie 2022-11-03 1:59 ` Dave Horsfall @ 2022-11-03 3:01 ` Clem Cole 2022-11-03 15:17 ` Paul Winalski 2 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2022-11-03 3:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ronald Natalie; +Cc: TUHS, steve jenkin [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2453 bytes --] The 33 and 28 needed at least two null chars after the <CR> or it would lose chars as there was no buffering. The Unix driver has the CR delay modes to support it. It’s UART as it were was mechanical and a real work of art. I remember spending a few hours trying to figure out how it worked. As for the LA120 yeah you really needed to use real flow control which could be a problem on DL11s and DZs ports. SW flow was less than prefect. However, the Able version of the DH supported flow in hardware (RTS/CTS style) so you could set them to interface with the host at 960cps and then print as fast as possible swiping back and forth on the paper as the local microprocessor in the decwritter buffered everything. On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 9:48 PM Ronald Natalie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wrote: > I’m not sure the model 33 required a carriage return delay. At 110 baud > it had plenty of time to move the carriage. back. > Other printers (especially faster ones) weren’t so lucky, but the LA36 > decwriter had a catchup mode to print the backlog after a return. > The LA120 was boustrophedonic so returns weren’t as much of an issue. > > ------ Original Message ------ > From "John P. Linderman" <jpl.jpl@gmail.com> > To jason-tuhs@shalott.net > Cc "steve jenkin" <sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au>; "TUHS" <tuhs@tuhs.org> > Date 11/2/2022 12:20:12 PM > Subject [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills > > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 3:02 PM <jason-tuhs@shalott.net> wrote: > >> >> > I’ve never heard anyone mention keyboard skills with the people of the >> > CSRC - doesn’t anyone know? >> >> >> https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/AUUGN/AUUGN-V05.4.pdf (p23) >> >> > History tells us that the guys who designed [UNIX] did their own typing >> > into the machine. It seems to me that because of this, the main reason >> > that UNIX enjoys/suffers from terse input and output is not through any >> > intellectual design decisions made at some early stage but because the >> > UNIX designers were just bad typists working on slow peripherals. >> >> >> -Jason >> > > Mostly rampant speculation on my part, but with 110 baud modems, 10 > characters per second right?, > and added delays for carriage returns, it was the peripherals that > encouraged brevity. Code would be > viewed multiple times, but entered roughly once. > > -- Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4264 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-03 1:47 ` Ronald Natalie 2022-11-03 1:59 ` Dave Horsfall 2022-11-03 3:01 ` Clem Cole @ 2022-11-03 15:17 ` Paul Winalski 2022-11-03 16:18 ` Clem Cole 2022-11-03 17:02 ` John Cowan 2 siblings, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Paul Winalski @ 2022-11-03 15:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ronald Natalie; +Cc: steve jenkin, TUHS On 11/2/22, Ronald Natalie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wrote: > I’m not sure the model 33 required a carriage return delay. At 110 > baud it had plenty of time to move the carriage. back. > Other printers (especially faster ones) weren’t so lucky, but the LA36 > decwriter had a catchup mode to print the backlog after a return. > The LA120 was boustrophedonic so returns weren’t as much of an issue. The model 33 had a very fast and powerful carriage return mechanism, good for cracking walnuts, but it took up to two character times to complete a CR. If you didn't send two non-printing characters (such as NUL), you risked having your character struck somewhere in the middle of the line. The LA36 DECwriter had a rather slow carriage return. It would buffer characters while a return was in progress and then print the buffered characters at 60 characters/second, slowing down to the normal 30 cps when caught up. There was a company that sold modified LA36 controller boards that were hacked so that the LA36 always thought it was in catch-up mode and could thus be run at double speed, provided that you inserted NUL padding after a CR. But that greatly reduced the longevity of the print mechanism. -Paul W. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-03 15:17 ` Paul Winalski @ 2022-11-03 16:18 ` Clem Cole 2022-11-03 17:02 ` John Cowan 1 sibling, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2022-11-03 16:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Paul Winalski; +Cc: steve jenkin, TUHS [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1546 bytes --] On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 11:19 AM Paul Winalski <paul.winalski@gmail.com> wrote: > The LA36 DECwriter had a rather slow carriage return. It would buffer > characters while a return was in progress and then print the buffered > characters at 60 characters/second, slowing down to the normal 30 cps > when caught up. > The key point here is that with the DEC Writer (LA36) DEC started to split the print speed (*in cps*) from the line interface speed (*in baud* as it was larger than an often character as it would have at least one start bit, one or more stop bits, and maybe a parity bit too). Herein also lies another problem, the mechanical interface, be it how fast the carriage moved, or the head was positioned, etc, could be much longer than the single character transfer time. As Paul mentioned on some mechanical devices without any buffering, the print might be random as the carriage moved the head. Teletype made an amazing mechanical device that had a minimum amount of electronics in it. By the time of the LA36, you start to see the microprocessor revolution and the use of cheap transistors to replace mechanical things to make faster/better devices with new features (like buffering and being able to have different speeds for data transfer and printing). But you also start to see the distinction between the mechanics (the keyboard/printer) and things like the communications scheme become even more obvious and terminology starts to be used to address the specific part of the problem. ᐧ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2490 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-03 15:17 ` Paul Winalski 2022-11-03 16:18 ` Clem Cole @ 2022-11-03 17:02 ` John Cowan 2022-11-03 19:36 ` Rich Morin 1 sibling, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: John Cowan @ 2022-11-03 17:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Paul Winalski; +Cc: steve jenkin, TUHS [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 682 bytes --] On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 11:19 AM Paul Winalski <paul.winalski@gmail.com> wrote: > The model 33 had a very fast and powerful carriage return mechanism, > good for cracking walnuts, but it took up to two character times to > complete a CR. If you didn't send two non-printing characters (such > as NUL), you risked having your character struck somewhere in the > middle of the line. > That was not my experience. I cut my teeth on a PDP-8/M running OS/8 with an ASR-33 attached and directly programming the KE8E controller without any additional time-delay loops. Outputting additional NULs would have screwed up binary paper tape output, so that can't have been how it was done. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1244 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-03 17:02 ` John Cowan @ 2022-11-03 19:36 ` Rich Morin 2022-11-03 20:01 ` Charles H Sauer (he/him) 0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Rich Morin @ 2022-11-03 19:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: TUHS > On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 11:19 AM Paul Winalski <paul.winalski@gmail.com> wrote: > > The model 33 had a very fast and powerful carriage return mechanism, > good for cracking walnuts ... In 1968, San Francisco State College (now yclept "University") set up a "computer lab", based on a few IBM 2741 terminals. These were hooked by leased lines to Stanford's Wylbur system and allowed us to do line-based editing, interactive Lisp, etc. Anyway, the terminals were based on the I/O Selectric, and the ball impacts were powered by a spinning bar with pretty much infinite torque. One day, an insufficiently cautious TA got her long, straight hair wound onto the bar. Each character that was printed pulled her head closer to the terminal. Fortunately, someone hit the OFF switch in time to avoid bloodshed. Then, we were able to carefully unwind her hair and free her from the terminal. IIRC, we didn't even have to cut any of her hair in the process... -r ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills 2022-11-03 19:36 ` Rich Morin @ 2022-11-03 20:01 ` Charles H Sauer (he/him) 0 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Charles H Sauer (he/him) @ 2022-11-03 20:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On 11/3/2022 2:36 PM, Rich Morin wrote: >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 11:19 AM Paul Winalski <paul.winalski@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> The model 33 had a very fast and powerful carriage return mechanism, >> good for cracking walnuts ... > > In 1968, San Francisco State College (now yclept "University") set up a "computer lab", based on a few IBM 2741 terminals. These were hooked by leased lines to Stanford's Wylbur system and allowed us to do line-based editing, interactive Lisp, etc. > > Anyway, the terminals were based on the I/O Selectric, and the ball impacts were powered by a spinning bar with pretty much infinite torque. One day, an insufficiently cautious TA got her long, straight hair wound onto the bar. Each character that was printed pulled her head closer to the terminal. > > Fortunately, someone hit the OFF switch in time to avoid bloodshed. Then, we were able to carefully unwind her hair and free her from the terminal. IIRC, we didn't even have to cut any of her hair in the process... I was nominally a music major at S.F. State at that time, in the midst of my self-imposed avoidance of computers, that started with disdain from my initial exposure to Fortran on IBM 1620 at U of MO-Columbia in 1964 and ended with semi-abandoning my rock and roll pursuits in early 1971 and starting C.S. studies at UT-Austin. I also took math courses at S.F. State in 1968 but was unaware of the above cited "lab". Regarding keyboarding skills, I took touch-typing in summer school after 9th grade, got a SCM portable electric typewriter that I might still have, and am still grateful for QWERTY facility that has served me ever since, on card punch, 2741, 3270, Displaywriter, and more obscure and more modern keyboards. CHS -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ Facebook/Google/Twitter: CharlesHSauer ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills
@ 2022-11-02 12:16 Douglas McIlroy
0 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread
From: Douglas McIlroy @ 2022-11-02 12:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: TUHS main list
> Touch typists can spot an illtyperate programmer from a mile away.
> They don't even have to be in the same room.
I once thought of touch typing as employment of all fingers. Then I met
Fred Grampp. Using only four fingers, he typed as fast as most good
programmers. He knew where to hit, with a kinesthetic sense that had
progressed beyond dependence on "home keys". It was an athletic
performance, astonishing to watch.
Doug
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2023-08-07 4:56 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 32+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2022-11-02 2:36 [TUHS] Early Unix and Keyboard Skills steve jenkin 2022-11-02 6:53 ` [TUHS] " Michael Kjörling 2022-11-02 7:11 ` Rob Pike 2022-11-02 13:28 ` Clem Cole 2022-11-03 21:51 ` Stuff Received 2023-08-05 23:53 ` scj 2023-08-06 0:22 ` KenUnix 2023-08-06 0:43 ` Larry McVoy 2023-08-06 14:51 ` Leah Neukirchen 2023-08-06 15:01 ` Larry McVoy 2023-08-06 16:31 ` Clem Cole 2023-08-06 18:20 ` Jon Forrest 2023-08-07 4:56 ` Adam Thornton 2023-08-06 8:37 ` Ronald Natalie 2022-11-02 12:13 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 2022-11-02 12:24 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 2022-11-02 20:35 ` Ron Natalie 2022-11-02 12:26 ` John P. Linderman 2022-11-02 13:07 ` Larry Stewart 2022-11-02 13:16 ` Larry McVoy 2022-11-02 13:27 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 2022-11-02 19:01 ` jason-tuhs 2022-11-02 19:20 ` John P. Linderman 2022-11-03 1:47 ` Ronald Natalie 2022-11-03 1:59 ` Dave Horsfall 2022-11-03 3:01 ` Clem Cole 2022-11-03 15:17 ` Paul Winalski 2022-11-03 16:18 ` Clem Cole 2022-11-03 17:02 ` John Cowan 2022-11-03 19:36 ` Rich Morin 2022-11-03 20:01 ` Charles H Sauer (he/him) 2022-11-02 12:16 Douglas McIlroy
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox; as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).