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* Re: [TUHS] Unix NCP protocol stack for ARPANET
@ 2021-10-25 18:50 Noel Chiappa
  2021-10-28  9:41 ` Lars Brinkhoff
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Noel Chiappa @ 2021-10-25 18:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc

    > From: "Ron Natalie"

    > However, the last NCP host table shows this statistic for DEC machines
    > on the NCP Arpanet
    > ...
    > PDP11 (MOS):  11
    > PDP11 (MINITS); 10

Hi, which host table was this that you're looking at?

I'm pretty sure there was no MINITS NCP ('NCP' in the sense of 'Initial
Connection Protocol (ICP)' and 'ARPANET Host-to-Host Protocol (AHHP)' - see
below). There was _certainaly_ no MINITS machine on the ARPANET at MIT (the
birthplace of MINITS).

To confirm, I looked at a major MINITS source repository, here:

    https://github.com/PDP-10/its/tree/master/src/mits_s

and saw nothing like that. (Not even an 1822 interface driver.)

If you look there, you _will_ see things labelled 'NCP', but this is just a
terminological affliction among the CHAOS people, to whom 'NCP' apparently
meant 'protocol implementation' or 'network code'.

Also, implementations of the 'Host-to-IMP Protocol (HIP)' are _not_ NCP
either; there was an HIP implementation in the C Gateway, but that was
as IP router, one that could connect to an IMP.

IF IT DOESN'T HAVE AHHP, IT"S NOT NCP.


Also, I was intimately familiar with MOS, and neither of the two earliest
applications that ran on it (the TIU, and the Port Expander, both of which I
have the source code for) had any NCP. I looked at a lot of the MOS 'NCP"
listings in a old host table (see here:

  https://gunkies.org/wiki/Talk:Network_Control_Program

for details) and concluded that the MOS 'NCP' entries were all 'confused'.


    > From: Clem Cole

    > I was under the impression, that you folks at MIT did a ChaosNet
    > interface, IIRC, so there may have been some sort of conversion on
    > your LAN, but I really doubt there was a real NCP running.

The AI Lab did both i) a LAN called CHAOS (4 Mbit/seccond CSMA-CD over CATV
cable) and ii) a protocol family callled CHAOS (which later ran over XDI
Ethernet). I'm not sure that any of it has any relvance to what's under
discussion here.

    > But there was a Rand stack around the same time and III think
    > Holmgren ended up at UCSB after his time at UICI. Im fairly sure there
    > was cross polinartion but I don't know how much.

I looked through my V6 Unix NCP, but although there were some RAND #ifdefs, I
didn't see anything about Rand (except that the MMDF is noted as being based
on something done at Rand). I retain the distinct impression that all V6 Unix
NCP machines were running some descendant of the UIUC code. NOSC seems to have
served as a distro center at one point, see:

  https://minnie.tuhs.org//cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=SRI-NOSC/new/dist.log

but I can't tell who they were sending it too.

(We never tried to get it running at MIT since we were out of IMP ports.
By the time we got another IMP, we had IP running on the -11 and
NCP was done anyway.)

As for UCB, there are a bunch of UCBUFMOD #ifdef's, not sure what that
was about.


    > As for other NCPs, PARC had MAXC on the net, but I thought it had
    > originally a DG Nova front end that was replaced with an Alto. 

No, Maxc1 had a Nova, Maxc2 had an Alto.


    > From: Paul Ruizendaal

    > they started with 32V in the Fall of 1979, and ported UIUC's NCP code
    > to it

Thanks for straightening that out. I had a vague memory that there were a
few VAXen that ran NCP, but wasn't sure.

    > 2. Note that the BBN TCP worked over NCP as its primary transport.

Your terminology is confused. TCP _never_ ran 'on' NCP; they were
_alternative_ protocol stacks on top of IHP (on the ARPANET). No
AHHP, no NCP.

    > The driver is still there if you look

That acc.c is a driver for the ACC 1822 interface; it includes bits of IHP
("Try to send 3 no-ops to IMP") but I don't think it includes the complete IHP.
There are other BSD 1822 device drivers, e.g.:

  https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.11BSD/sys/pdpif/if_sri.c

That's the BSD2.11 Stanford/SRI 1822 device driver.

	Noel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix NCP protocol stack for ARPANET
  2021-10-25 18:50 [TUHS] Unix NCP protocol stack for ARPANET Noel Chiappa
@ 2021-10-28  9:41 ` Lars Brinkhoff
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Lars Brinkhoff @ 2021-10-28  9:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noel Chiappa; +Cc: tuhs

Noel Chiappa wrote:
> this is just a terminological affliction among the CHAOS people, to
> whom 'NCP' apparently meant 'protocol implementation' or 'network
> code'.

I always assumed this interpretation of "Network Control Program" was
"software component that controls the network", and that this would
apply equally well to many different networks.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix NCP protocol stack for ARPANET
@ 2021-10-26  8:06 Paul Ruizendaal
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Paul Ruizendaal @ 2021-10-26  8:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list, Lars Brinkhoff

Noel wrote:

>> 2. Note that the BBN TCP worked over NCP as its primary transport.
> 
> Your terminology is confused. TCP _never_ ran 'on' NCP; they were
> _alternative_ protocol stacks on top of IHP (on the ARPANET). No
> AHHP, no NCP.

Yes, of course you are right. I meant BBN TCP used *Arpanet* as its primary transport and hence has drivers for the IMP interface hardware.


Lars wrote:

> Here's the rub.  Some hosts may have jumped the TCP/IP gun ahead of the
> 1/1 1983 flag day.  The host tables don't say.  Could it be that all
> those VAXen were running experimental TCP/IP in January 1982?

From Mike Muuss’ TCP digest mailing list and a mail conversation with Vint Cerf a few years ago I understood the following. “Flag day” wasn’t as black and white as we remember it now. During 1982 there was a continuous push to move systems to TCP, and over the year more and more systems became dual protocol capable and later even TCP only. Because all TCP traffic used the same, dedicated Arpanet link number, BBN’s network control team could monitor the level of usage. From memory, in the Summer of 1982 traffic was about 50% TCP and by October 70%. Presumably it reached 80-90% by the end of the year.

During 1982 on 3 occasions, network control activated a feature in the IMP’s that refused traffic on link #0, which NCP used to negotiate a connection. This caused NCP applications to stop working. Again from memory, the first outage was a few hours, the second one a day and third one, late in 1982, for two days. This highlighted systems that needed conversion and helped motivate higher ups to approve conversion resources. It seems that making the switch often involved upgrading PDP11 to VAX.

From what I can tell flag day went well, although there were issues with mail gateways that lasted for several weeks.

At the start of 1982 there was no (usable) VAX Unix TCP code that I am aware of. There were several options for the PDP11, but of those I think only the 3COM code worked well. Around March/April there was code from BBN (see TUHS 4.1BSD) and from CSRG (4.1a BSD). A special build of PDP11 2.8BSD with TCP arrived somewhat later. My impression is that this was still the state of play on flag day, with 4.1cBSD only arriving well into 1983.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix NCP protocol stack for ARPANET
  2021-10-25 16:50 Paul Ruizendaal
@ 2021-10-25 19:04 ` Lars Brinkhoff
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Lars Brinkhoff @ 2021-10-25 19:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Paul Ruizendaal; +Cc: TUHS main list

Paul Ruizendaal wrote:
> You may want to look at the 4 surviving BBN tapes on Kirk McKusick’s
> DVD software collection. A small part of that is on the TUHS Unix tree
> page - see the 4.1BSD entry.

That's great information, thanks!

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix NCP protocol stack for ARPANET
@ 2021-10-25 16:50 Paul Ruizendaal
  2021-10-25 19:04 ` Lars Brinkhoff
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Paul Ruizendaal @ 2021-10-25 16:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list, Lars Brinkhoff

> I have searched the TUHS archive and elsewhere, but all I
> find for Unix is a copy of the PDP-11 Unix V6 NCP from Illinois.
> 
> Has any other NCP implementation for Unix survived?  From old host
> tables I think there may have been some VAXen online before the switch
> to TCP/IP.

Lars,

You may want to look at the 4 surviving BBN tapes on Kirk McKusick’s DVD software collection. A small part of that is on the TUHS Unix tree page - see the 4.1BSD entry.

1. A history of NCP on the VAX at BBN can be found in the change log:
https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=BBN-Vax-TCP/history

In short they started with 32V in the Fall of 1979, and ported UIUC’s NCP code to it in May 1980. They then moved to 4.1BSD in August and ported yet again. It would seem that the ports were fairly straightforward. Coding for TCP begins in January 1981.

2. Note that the BBN TCP worked over NCP as its primary transport. The driver is still there if you look through the surviving BBN tapes. Part of that code is on TUHS:
https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=BBN-Vax-TCP/dev/acc.c
https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=BBN-Vax-TCP/bbnnet-oct82/imp_io.c

It will take some effort, but probably the NCP VAX code can be reconstructed from the surviving PDP11 UIUC code and these BBN tapes (the file names in the change log match).

3. The BBN tapes also have some user level software: telnet, ftp, mtp. This code consists of straight NCP to TCP conversions and the source code has #ifdef’s for NCP and TCP. An example is here:
https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=BBN-Vax-TCP/src/telnet/netser.c

Hope this helps.

Paul

PS - Info on the DVD is here (bottom of the page):
https://www.mckusick.com/csrg/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix NCP protocol stack for ARPANET
  2021-10-24 17:24 ` Clem Cole
  2021-10-24 18:32   ` Ron Natalie
@ 2021-10-25  9:26   ` Lars Brinkhoff
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Lars Brinkhoff @ 2021-10-25  9:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: tuhs

Clem Cole wrote:
> > Has any other NCP implementation for Unix survived?  From old host
> > tables I think there may have been some VAXen online before the
> > switch to TCP/IP.
>
> Hmmm... I find that interesting because Stan Smith and I wrote the
> original IP/TCP for the VAX in 1979/1980 when we were at Tektronix
> [...].  When Stan and I started that work, I had looked everywhere I
> could think to find an NCP implementation, and never found one.

That seems consistent with host tables I see.  According to those, there
were no VAXen on the ARPANET in 1980.  However, there were a a dozen or
so in mid 1981; mostly VMS.  (I'd also like to ask about NCP for VMS,
but this is TUHS.)

In early 1982 the number of VAXen has doubled, and out of those 10 are
running Unix including prominent sites like BBN, CCA, PURDUE, RAND, UCB.
Here's the rub.  Some hosts may have jumped the TCP/IP gun ahead of the
1/1 1983 flag day.  The host tables don't say.  Could it be that all
those VAXen were running experimental TCP/IP in January 1982?

> You tell me, but I was under the impression, that you folks at MIT did
> a ChaosNet interface, IIRC, so there may have been some sort of
> conversion on your LAN, but I really doubt there was a real NCP
> running.

The MIT host tables do show the Chaos networks, but I don't include
those in the count.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix NCP protocol stack for ARPANET
  2021-10-24 19:28     ` Warner Losh
@ 2021-10-24 20:25       ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2021-10-24 20:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warner Losh; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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Sorry for typo and top posting on my iPhone for a few days as I'm traveling
W/O a computer.

Some thoughts.

There a number of pdp11 stacks for ip and I assume we the ncp but they were
not all sourced by bbn.  A number were in assembler

As Noel pointed out the first widely distributed Unix implementation for
the ncp was the uici version.  But there was a Rand stack around the same
time and III ty hink Holmgren ended up at UCSB after his time at UICI.  Im
fairly sure there was cross polinartion but I don't know how much.

In the IP space the 11 assembler version was the first u knew about.  The
first C version was the Haverty stack that became what knew of as the
portable IP stack originally for the Nova.   Rob Gurwitz (working) for Jack
did the 4.1 code and was the original official Vax stack for DARPA.  Joy's
reimplementation for 4.1a was sort of unsanctioned and caused a bit of a
rift as it was not a complete rewrite and officially BBN was doing the
network support for the VAX for DARPA. CSRG was just supposed to being
doing base OS.

But the joy version is derrived from the Gurwitz/Havert work - For instance
the famous mbuf code came from the DG Nova implementation a few years
earlier.  [I was once told mbufs came from Brown, but Jack said on the IH
mailing list in the last year or so, he worked on them before Rob started
his work].

Stan and I only had assembler and BLISS and Fortran on the Vax under VMS so
I started at the DG version when we did something similar in the Tek
version [it was not as elegant or as complicated and probably not as good].

As for other NCPs, PARC had MAXC on the net, but I thought it had
originally a DG Nova front end that was replaced with an Alto.  But the NCP
ran as Nova code in BCPL in both.

On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 3:30 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 12:41 PM Ron Natalie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wrote:
>
>> There were definitely as many PDP-11's (most running UNIX) as there were
>> DEC 10s in the glory days of the Arpanet.   VAXes only rolled out toward
>> the end of the NCP era.
>>
>> However, the last NCP host table shows this statistic for DEC machines on
>> the NCP Arpanet
>>
>> VAX (UNIX):  58
>> PDP11(UNIX): 59
>>
>
> So as of 1980-12-31, you had 7th Edition and 32V in the wild. 3BSD was
> late 1979 or early 1980. 4BSD was late 1980.
> The Columbus Unix was also running on VAXen, but I don't have great dates
> for that and most (all?) of those machines
> were confined to internal AT&T.
>
> I recall reading, but don't recall where I read it, that the Urbana
> networking was ported to 7th Edition. I tried to find
> such source, but couldn't 18 months ago. 32V is basically the same as 7th
> Edition, so would make a good candidate
> for such a port, though 3BSD isn't so radically different, except in
> buffer mapping, that it couldn't run there w/o much
> effort.  The VAX never had a V6 port that I've read about anywhere, though
> I'll defer to others with better sources.
>
> I'd bet some $$$ that BBN did the port, but I have no good source for that
> either.
>
> Warner
>
> --
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual

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* Re: [TUHS] Unix NCP protocol stack for ARPANET
  2021-10-24 18:32   ` Ron Natalie
  2021-10-24 19:28     ` Clem Cole
@ 2021-10-24 19:28     ` Warner Losh
  2021-10-24 20:25       ` Clem Cole
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2021-10-24 19:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ron Natalie; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 12:41 PM Ron Natalie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wrote:

> There were definitely as many PDP-11's (most running UNIX) as there were
> DEC 10s in the glory days of the Arpanet.   VAXes only rolled out toward
> the end of the NCP era.
>
> However, the last NCP host table shows this statistic for DEC machines on
> the NCP Arpanet
>
> VAX (UNIX):  58
> PDP11(UNIX): 59
>

So as of 1980-12-31, you had 7th Edition and 32V in the wild. 3BSD was late
1979 or early 1980. 4BSD was late 1980.
The Columbus Unix was also running on VAXen, but I don't have great dates
for that and most (all?) of those machines
were confined to internal AT&T.

I recall reading, but don't recall where I read it, that the Urbana
networking was ported to 7th Edition. I tried to find
such source, but couldn't 18 months ago. 32V is basically the same as 7th
Edition, so would make a good candidate
for such a port, though 3BSD isn't so radically different, except in buffer
mapping, that it couldn't run there w/o much
effort.  The VAX never had a V6 port that I've read about anywhere, though
I'll defer to others with better sources.

I'd bet some $$$ that BBN did the port, but I have no good source for that
either.

Warner

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* Re: [TUHS] Unix NCP protocol stack for ARPANET
  2021-10-24 18:32   ` Ron Natalie
@ 2021-10-24 19:28     ` Clem Cole
  2021-10-24 19:28     ` Warner Losh
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2021-10-24 19:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ron Natalie; +Cc: tuhs

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Ron. Where did the back ncp come from?as I said I never saw it and we tried
to find one.  Same for an IP implementation.  That's why we wrote one.  We
were 3coms first customer and I somewhere have the mailing evenlope marked
the 32 of December because they had a VC payment dependent on delivering
before end of year.

As for 11s. Yes that is true.  A lot of them front ended large systems as
Bob pointed out but many were self supporting as you note.

On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 2:41 PM Ron Natalie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wrote:

> There were definitely as many PDP-11's (most running UNIX) as there were
> DEC 10s in the glory days of the Arpanet.   VAXes only rolled out toward
> the end of the NCP era.
>
> However, the last NCP host table shows this statistic for DEC machines on
> the NCP Arpanet
>
> VAX (UNIX):  58
> VAX (VMS):  19
>
> PDP11 (UNIX):  59
> PDP11 (RSX): 6
> PDP11 (MOS):  11
> PDP11 (MINITS); 10
>
> PDP10 (TOPS-20):  40
> PDP10 (TOPS-10): 7
> PDP10 (TENEX):   22
> PDP10 (ITS):  4
> PDP10 (WAITS): 3
>
> I had all but forgotten about Local Host / Distant Host / Very Distant
> Host 1822 protocols.    I remember that BRL had a PDP-11/40 running ANTS
> (ArpaNet Terminal Server out of University of Illinois).   It got replaced
> by an 11/34 running UNIX when the Arpanet went to long leaders New Years
> 1981.
>
-- 
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual

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* Re: [TUHS] Unix NCP protocol stack for ARPANET
  2021-10-24 17:24 ` Clem Cole
@ 2021-10-24 18:32   ` Ron Natalie
  2021-10-24 19:28     ` Clem Cole
  2021-10-24 19:28     ` Warner Losh
  2021-10-25  9:26   ` Lars Brinkhoff
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Ron Natalie @ 2021-10-24 18:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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There were definitely as many PDP-11's (most running UNIX) as there were 
DEC 10s in the glory days of the Arpanet.   VAXes only rolled out toward 
the end of the NCP era.

However, the last NCP host table shows this statistic for DEC machines 
on the NCP Arpanet

VAX (UNIX):  58
VAX (VMS):  19

PDP11 (UNIX):  59
PDP11 (RSX): 6
PDP11 (MOS):  11
PDP11 (MINITS); 10

PDP10 (TOPS-20):  40
PDP10 (TOPS-10): 7
PDP10 (TENEX):   22
PDP10 (ITS):  4
PDP10 (WAITS): 3

I had all but forgotten about Local Host / Distant Host / Very Distant 
Host 1822 protocols.    I remember that BRL had a PDP-11/40 running ANTS 
(ArpaNet Terminal Server out of University of Illinois).   It got 
replaced by an 11/34 running UNIX when the Arpanet went to long leaders 
New Years 1981.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix NCP protocol stack for ARPANET
  2021-10-24 16:16 Lars Brinkhoff
@ 2021-10-24 17:24 ` Clem Cole
  2021-10-24 18:32   ` Ron Natalie
  2021-10-25  9:26   ` Lars Brinkhoff
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2021-10-24 17:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Brinkhoff; +Cc: tuhs

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On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 12:57 PM Lars Brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> wrote:

> Has any other NCP implementation for Unix survived?  From old host
> tables I think there may have been some VAXen online before the switch
> to TCP/IP.
>
Hmmm... I find that interesting because  Stan Smith and I wrote the
original IP/TCP for the VAX in 1979/1980 when we were at Tektronix(in
BLISS-32, BTW -- which I gave back to CMU, and CMU added mailer and
eventual DNS support, and then distributed it as the Tek-CMU TCP/IP - DEC
eventually used it to start their in-house effort - I have that code on
9-track and may have it on a CD somewhere).   When Stan and I started that
work, I had looked everywhere I could think to find an NCP implementation,
and never found one.   Our Vax was connected to the Teklabs 11/70 running
V7 and the 3Com UNET stack that Bruce Bordan and crew wrote.

The reason was that IMP's ports were a rare commodity and free ones almost
non-existent.  So when Vaxen started to roll out, the IMPs were
usually filed with PDP-10s at the research sites.   Vaxen also tended to
have Xerox 3M Ethernet boards.  I also don't know of anyone connecting a
DR-11B to an 1822 for a Vax - could have been done, but I don't know of
one.   At both CMU and UCB, we used Xerox boards until the real ones from
3Com, Interlan and DEC showed up and that was not until 1981-82 and the IP
transition has already begun.

You tell me, but I was under the impression, that you folks at MIT did a
ChaosNet interface, IIRC, so there may have been some sort of conversion on
your LAN, but I really doubt there was a real NCP running.

FYI: CMU had Vax serial #1, and it was never on the ARPAnet.  It was in the
same machine room as the IBM 360s, PDP-20s, and Univac 1108, not the CS
PDP-10s where the IMP was.

My guess is that people had Vaxen assigned in the host tables, but never
connected for lack of an NCP implementation.  And until the Tek stack for
VMS and the BBN stack for 4.1 BSD, I don't think there were any Vaxen yet
on either the NCP based ARPAnet much less the later IP-based one.

Clem
ᐧ
ᐧ

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Unix NCP protocol stack for ARPANET
@ 2021-10-24 16:16 Lars Brinkhoff
  2021-10-24 17:24 ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Lars Brinkhoff @ 2021-10-24 16:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Hello,

I'm working on setting up an emulated ARPANET using the original IMP
software recovered some years ago.  It turns out, the greatest challenge
is finding the NCP software on the host side that implements the ARPANET
protocols.  I have searched the TUHS archive and elsewhere, but all I
find for Unix is a copy of the PDP-11 Unix V6 NCP from Illinois.

Has any other NCP implementation for Unix survived?  From old host
tables I think there may have been some VAXen online before the switch
to TCP/IP.

Best regards,
Lars Brinkhoff

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2021-10-28  9:42 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2021-10-25 18:50 [TUHS] Unix NCP protocol stack for ARPANET Noel Chiappa
2021-10-28  9:41 ` Lars Brinkhoff
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2021-10-26  8:06 Paul Ruizendaal
2021-10-25 16:50 Paul Ruizendaal
2021-10-25 19:04 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2021-10-24 16:16 Lars Brinkhoff
2021-10-24 17:24 ` Clem Cole
2021-10-24 18:32   ` Ron Natalie
2021-10-24 19:28     ` Clem Cole
2021-10-24 19:28     ` Warner Losh
2021-10-24 20:25       ` Clem Cole
2021-10-25  9:26   ` Lars Brinkhoff

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