From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 27842 invoked from network); 18 Jan 2023 17:26:43 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 18 Jan 2023 17:26:43 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F320D42409; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 03:26:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oa1-f54.google.com (mail-oa1-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CC05423DC for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 03:26:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oa1-f54.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-15f64f2791dso5917562fac.7 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2023 09:26:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Y+GILT52z/wu5nZmZ+4D4ZR5Eos1zWdfIbLdNNQE8kw=; b=pTPKMH/dAMTCy5J1Oj6Rsm0t6/oN2VIBAaEHVI1eTJFr97+5DZxfjBT2EYqdbTBBcm vm/iSDEo/aAa5jxCJYqvRu5YiEYdDxuwvjKG+ujqx3WlYj1JsPqM37lJPLtiDG0dJSrn QLJ5Z20vnnUtB173jSLUq1x5a7Nrb9ovSDYO25991R5tPE4aV94FVOix9Ol9sSpriwCY qMWkn/qVavLBCBC+deJT/nJiVD7SfGMjqxGRH5zHUkmzI+eV+a2HRQSmu3gt7Jm35YNa rB6QaXJiATw203vygOS33/mZo5+3sFPF6P6xM7ByJkZZG/+NdQ+q6Ukzt41qp5PTUlaK hJcQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Y+GILT52z/wu5nZmZ+4D4ZR5Eos1zWdfIbLdNNQE8kw=; b=17M9BzLQriq0n6VON8+8F7zRsk2qog1vQDgTsGda6UwqfH8cAa94M0blnE4pl9zrRF jWHCSO2KUrsWGkSVRI8SqmPIhKVgx+SqZ/jCVIDcRliO3M1OQxgi977d2fn0opVOmOTj 261ZpeepyiKizc6PqQk6FUwlsHfnTGxK0wNHLX1m4iMKNgCr5b814FTgzak1fsW332ce GYR1gpU0vEHd8P82p2srCKW2ges87bX6Sh+5mb7WCG2VoJbOXlGiNG1UDTrxyTS4u5D5 ZDAnzvy/UL8yq/wXbC1iSDHNU71sT0u+BGBIHTwKtKNduNaBakk2MTuo6mmcFeURhzuQ NkeQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kqCdg2MQ2IqFhjyAQb71N68DkiQrKT6npbnDzjcB+EO0Wze54ew mFdMVV3uhIfdU8D0wRW607smK6E1mg0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXsFxG1NitUCozvfsVbt44wKMRcGyzMrDRm0j1MW3jYyxInWOzKCCLMDbu1dN6gd0jW5xg5Q4A== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:b787:b0:15f:3e1d:8968 with SMTP id ed7-20020a056870b78700b0015f3e1d8968mr3085460oab.2.1674062733560; Wed, 18 Jan 2023 09:25:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.0.2] ([2.56.190.191]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w15-20020a4ae08f000000b004f1f6b25091sm14675397oos.41.2023.01.18.09.25.32 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 18 Jan 2023 09:25:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <80641ed1-b0a1-78f8-fabe-83c13b9a9ade@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 11:25:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.4.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Larry McVoy References: <202301180943.30I9hrOw030485@freefriends.org> <202301181513.30IFDDUJ015224@freefriends.org> <20230118151446.GD2964@mcvoy.com> <20230118161959.GE2964@mcvoy.com> <2f00f9a6-c57d-8490-4066-931ec6e191cd@gmail.com> <20230118164242.GG2964@mcvoy.com> <13b87744-306e-7ecc-a0d0-9305d4b7d958@gmail.com> <20230118171633.GH2964@mcvoy.com> From: Will Senn In-Reply-To: <20230118171633.GH2964@mcvoy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID-Hash: PVX6AJ6HL4AV2O4EVWCAJUCSH2E36YKU X-Message-ID-Hash: PVX6AJ6HL4AV2O4EVWCAJUCSH2E36YKU X-MailFrom: will.senn@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: AIX moved into maintainance mode List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Fair enough, but the worlds a little more forgiving than all that doom and gloom :). If an innovation happens in BSDland, it generally gets ported into Linuxland, in time, and visa versa. I heart linux, don't get me wrong. I just wish they would... On 1/18/23 11:16 AM, Larry McVoy wrote: > Well if you want to use your precious time working on some BSD, by all > means, it's your time. I looked at where the BSDs were going 30 years ago > and decided that helping Linux would be a better return on investment. > I don't say that happily, SunOS was my happy place and it was the best > BSD that ever existed. Turning to Linux was not easy but history has > shown it to have been the right choice for me. > > The problem with BSD is a lack of users. Linux has so many more people > using it, the chances of one of them finding the problem and getting it > fixed, before I hit it, are dramatically higher than the same thing with > a BSD release. > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 10:57:17AM -0600, Will Senn wrote: >> Pretty sure Netflix CDN is still using it as are other vendors in need of >> stable and fast. Just cuz my neighbor doesn't use it, or joe website hoster >> doesn't use it doesn't relegate it to the nobody uses it pile. >> >> On 1/18/23 10:42 AM, Larry McVoy wrote: >>> Wishful thinking. An OS needs critical mass in terms of developers. >>> The BSD efforts divided their devs by having multiple efforts. It >>> was very obvious from the beginning that Linux was getting all the >>> developers. Go look at the rate of commits to Linux vs the rate >>> of commits to {Net,Open,Free,DragonFly,etc}BSD. >>> >>> They aren't dead as in nobody does anything to them but they are >>> dead in that very few people use them. >>> >>> Look, Linux users are tiny compared to Windows / MacOS, I think the >>> desktop users is around 1%. BSD users are even more tiny than Linux. >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 10:36:48AM -0600, Will Senn wrote: >>>> Hi Larry, >>>> >>>> I disagree, but only time will tell. I don't think BSD is dead is really a >>>> fair statement, unless you're referring to the actual distribution. As a >>>> line, I think it's still viable (I run it in several flavors and it works, >>>> much more reliably than most linuxes which I also run in multiple flavors). >>>> That said, everybody :) it seems, seems to be on the Linux is the future >>>> bandwagon with seemingly only a few of us holdouts. Just a couple of days >>>> ago I spun up a TrueNAS instance and it was glorious - of course it was >>>> CORE, try that with SCALE :). >>>> >>>> It does seem like the wave favors Windows, Mac, and Linux... But, just cuz >>>> they're popular doesn't mean the less popular OSes are dead (I say this as I >>>> gaze fondly over towards my KIM-1 clone and think of Monitor. >>>> >>>> Will >>>> >>>> On 1/18/23 10:19 AM, Larry McVoy wrote: >>>>> Pretty unrealistic to expect the users to suddenly have the time to do >>>>> kernel dev. Solaris opened sourced itself and it's dead. >>>>> >>>>> It's a lot of work to maintain and evolve an OS. Windows, MacOS, and >>>>> Linux seem like the future. >>>>> >>>>> As for BSD, they pretty much killed themselves by all the in-fighting and >>>>> the lack of someone like Linus. That was obvious 30 years ago and it >>>>> hasn't changed. That's why I switched from BSD to Linux. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 04:10:34PM +0000, segaloco wrote: >>>>>> I just hope we'll see some attempts at opening up these code bases as time goes on. Seeing as they're no longer going to be pushing new copies and will eventually ramp down maintenance releases, opening up the source would give their end users the ability to potentially float their own improvements if they can't immediately migrate to Linux or BSD. That said, security implications of course, don't want to just hand bad actors a code base to comb for memory unsafety in. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also this article is BSD erasure :(, no mentions of the big three save that OpenServer and Darwin have chunks of FreeBSD in them. I guess Berkeley is just chopped liver... >>>>>> >>>>>> - Matt G. >>>>>> >>>>>> ------- Original Message ------- >>>>>> On Wednesday, January 18th, 2023 at 7:14 AM, Larry McVoy wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> It makes perfect sense, it's a repeated story, commercial loses out >>>>>>> to free. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 08:13:13AM -0700, arnold@skeeve.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Interestingly enough, Phil Hughes, who founded Linux Journal >>>>>>>> in the early 1990s, predicted that this would happen one day. >>>>>>>> This was in a private conversation we had. I thought he >>>>>>>> was crazy, but he was right. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> arnold@skeeve.com wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://www.theregister.com/2023/01/17/unix_is_dead/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> FYI. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Arnold >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat