From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.2 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI, NICE_REPLY_A autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 18153 invoked from network); 12 Jan 2022 23:34:11 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 12 Jan 2022 23:34:11 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 028F19CFFA; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 09:34:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 526479CF7E; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 09:33:57 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 298DB9CF7E; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 09:33:55 +1000 (AEST) X-Greylist: delayed 397 seconds by postgrey-1.36 at minnie.tuhs.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 09:33:54 AEST Received: from rooster.satexas.com (rooster.satexas.com [207.235.90.2]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D0E09C78F for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 09:33:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rooster.satexas.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 827DB1C2A8D for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 17:27:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from rooster.satexas.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (rooster.satexas.com [127.0.0.1]) (maiad, port 10024) with ESMTP id 53713-03 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 17:27:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from [192.168.147.220] (rrcs-71-42-153-195.sw.biz.rr.com [71.42.153.195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: csauer@nwhillsumc.org) by rooster.satexas.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C71F91C2A8E for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 17:27:14 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <87382868-fabd-afdb-0d29-ec6d05bc4ada@technologists.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 17:27:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: en-CA To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org References: <20220101031511.GB8135@mcvoy.com> <20220111015901.GE25103@eureka.lemis.com> <4409b91cd794867d@orthanc.ca> <20220111024218.GE3441@mcvoy.com> <202201120854.20C8sDRR014233@freefriends.org> <20220112180619.mxzojchd62vpwm2f@localhost.localdomain> <8075a67e-7cf6-cf0c-b1e7-9c2b473b2892@halwitz.org> From: "Charles H. Sauer" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: World Net ProMail v2.0.0 Subject: Re: [TUHS] *roff history as told to GNU X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" I try to avoid inserting non-Unix IBM stuff into TUHS, but since Clem opened the door, ... When I was at Yorktown 1975-77 and 1979-82, using Script (IBM's runoff) on VM/370 was very pleasant from my perspective, for papers, manuals and my three performance modeling books. IIRC when I got there Script output went to Versatecs for draft output and to APS5 for camera ready. By 1979, DCF superseded Script and 6670s superseded Versatecs for draft output. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCRIPT_(markup) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Generalized_Markup_Language seem fair to me. While I'm inserting non-Unix stuff, and presuming some parallel between Yorktown and Murray Hill, the culture discussions make me point out that I intentionally avoided ties and suits my first couple of years, wearing a turtleneck for my initial interviews. Then my wife insisted I start wearing three piece wool suits, which were fine in the cold months requiring driving, but I avoided them when the weather was warm enough for me to cycle the five miles to the lab (https://technologists.com/songs/swans.html). CHS On 1/12/2022 4:48 PM, Clem Cole wrote: > Dan/Branden -- don't forget that IBM had a flavor of the runoff family > also at least by the early 1970s when I saw it.  In fact, I learned it > before either the DEC ones for the PDP-10s which I saw next, and only > after that the UNIX family.    We ran the IBM doc tool on TSS [often of > 2741 style devices], and I think it ran on MTS.  Pre-laser printer days, > although CS an XGP, it was only 200 dpi (and was on the PDP-10s).  So > CMU computer center (IBM shop) even had a very high end printer with a > golf ball (serial) output device that was in a locked room that was > connected the 360 that they used to print 'special' letters on a fan > folded paper that was super high quality and then run through the > 'burster' to remove the edges and make it single sheets [Acceptance > letters and other special things got printed on it by the computer > center for the administration].   I don't remember much about that part > of the process, other than the input/prep was from the IBM version of a > runoff like program and as an operator, we had to learn to make it go > and run things out on it as needed. But I do remember it was a PITA to > output to that thing, but the SW also worked on a traditional 2741.  As > a member of the computer staff I had access to the 2741 in my office > (for APL work), but could set it up as a standard 2741 and type papers > on it late at night. > > On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 1:42 PM Dan Halbert > wrote: > > On 1/12/22 13:06, G. Branden Robinson wrote: > > Hi, Dan, > > > > At 2022-01-12T11:33:35-0500, Dan Cross wrote: > >> I have some questions about the earlier history. > >> > >> I've been collecting a detailed narrative history not just of > the *roff > >> _programs_ but also of the development on the language in the > roff(7) > >> manual page.  Below I'll share a current chunk of it that is > planned for > >> the next release (groff 1.23).  It has been heavily revised since > >> groff 1.22.4.  Many of my revisions have been motivated by > accounts from > >> this list, from the "history of man pages" (more of a history of > troff) > >> at manpages.bsd.lv , and the minnie TUHS > archive. > > I used RUNOFF on TOPS-10 in 1971, I think, and eventually also on TENEX > and TOPS-20. It probably was available earlier than that. Your history > is covering the Unix side, but there is also a pretty robust DEC side. > It was available on pretty much all the DEC machines. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TYPSET_and_RUNOFF > has some mentions. > > Dan H. > -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ Facebook/Google/Twitter: CharlesHSauer