From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F62F2497E for ; Mon, 17 Jun 2024 03:01:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8776E431B6; Mon, 17 Jun 2024 11:01:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pf1-x432.google.com (mail-pf1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::432]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8ADF74319C for ; Mon, 17 Jun 2024 11:01:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pf1-x432.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-70436048c25so2960522b3a.0 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2024 18:01:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1718586104; x=1719190904; darn=tuhs.org; h=mime-version:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=fvGmg+NKrG1JuwMUC1sWSrhZgNE/3c7+kHPJNHTTcnI=; b=ez/4mdhwvuFmzqJu1Hkw+ysDditayFRuL9gbrn26b4xFbTMt9YZH1R1WGKRtNSiqj9 WNkGkxn6G4tnellHokrKNdHSrMVsRdHcHKgeYiLLl9sp5w/k5JcQJKlFN54ehEyodN/v RBw4exING6rZCyQb9IjpkP6yCaLLdMWVDw9y99nBINWLOHbLsSRevvq+ViMbSv6+BpX3 QE68CdAKQugFHWsmq61dQ5NTcpAUbdMCM2C5b6ix/BDa5GyVCMy/9GY2dphgpZLL/pge Km7ViRoQVUQO56cicYrprepbxMlI7jwiGqMO7UyO0/k7++2bMfLcs3qcl938bXE+7t37 CGig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718586104; x=1719190904; h=mime-version:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=fvGmg+NKrG1JuwMUC1sWSrhZgNE/3c7+kHPJNHTTcnI=; b=PptEVvADaP6yjByICWuAhnwHOaB92KAP1miT24iOxHUxaZi7IPoIqMe7cj3H+KQeNH Ahw20bPvvrsHOT63mXenx6TdazhFkcKgh0T9l2KieBVgndLUl1RQe98tAZ8DS3lhD3Ew mAnPYPsjt142goBj2LwafKEhI99v2MWiyjqjFI75orbMqxZKAjb5oxVgeWizPFOF4ecn yx4zw9l0WTeoam4QYBobAesj8bTNhA4UMtWVLXuTCN2xoc2G+t9tfJNBTV+oDca1ET35 bO55DhAghcddOcyBFAceDPGd7Q0a86uaJMbpY9dBD9nLB4e0EmTrnwvTNHvig43VobK+ E+eA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzUrjAPdwCxjvQN0oQz7sJitxCwCCH0Lds+RIaSKcXL0F/xcUD1 P4FZS1kJ4MrPZI8+nhsHV97Qx8lh9hqbax8fHAOhJBubk8lnBiqQWCekPA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGTjf1D/NJUnLm/5ufvjo4V1rnBVd75jwbOzQjzplqaNmRf2rs24BdlW6Wpocx7EC8q/5i+PQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a20:918f:b0:1b5:8ab9:9a24 with SMTP id adf61e73a8af0-1bae7f174f2mr8320468637.35.1718586104307; Sun, 16 Jun 2024 18:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([203.221.118.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d2e1a72fcca58-705cc964b2bsm6428286b3a.48.2024.06.16.18.01.43 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 16 Jun 2024 18:01:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Alexis To: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list In-Reply-To: (Greg A. Woods's message of "Sat, 15 Jun 2024 01:48:39 -0700") References: <73819d1a-395a-4b74-a20c-0123fbed56bd@technologists.com> <87msnl4ew0.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 11:01:40 +1000 Message-ID: <87iky84c23.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID-Hash: ZL75Q7PRLGZJO4FYA2FOMO6URVCIFV3A X-Message-ID-Hash: ZL75Q7PRLGZJO4FYA2FOMO6URVCIFV3A X-MailFrom: flexibeast@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' The Register List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: "Greg A. Woods" writes: > At Sun, 16 Jun 2024 15:48:15 +1000, Alexis > > wrote: > Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix > philosophy' The Register >> >> Here's an excerpt from something i wrote >> on the Gentoo forum back in April: >> >> > [[...]] the situation on >> > Linux was a mess. Many of the (usually >> > volunteers) who maintain packages for >> > Linux don't want to have to learn the >> > complexities of shell scripting and the >> > subtle issues that can arise > > That pretty much says it all about the state of the GNU/linux > world > right there. > > In the "Unix world" everyone learns shell scripting, some better > than > others of course, and some hate it at the same time too, but I > would > say > from my experience it's a given. You either learn shell > scripting or > you are "just a user" (even if you also write application code). i feel this comment is unfair. The specific thing i wrote was: > the _complexities_ of shell scripting and the _subtle issues_ > that can arise [emphasis added] The issue isn't about learning shell scripting _per se_. It's about the extent to which _volunteers_ have to go beyond the _basics_ of shell scripting to learn about the _complexities_ and _subtle issues_ involved in using it to provide _robust_ service management. Including learning, for example, that certain functionality one takes for granted in a given shell isn't actually POSIX, and can't be assumed to be present in the shell one is working with (not to mention that POSIX-compatibility might need to be actively enabled, as in the case of e.g. ksh, via POSIXLY_CORRECT). Here's a FreeBSD thread from 2014, about how service(8) wasn't providing the same environment to scripts that boot did: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/svn-src-head/2014-July/060519.html i'm a BSD user as well as a Linux user - i've been maintaining OpenBSD servers for several years. i certainly have my own criticisms of Linux versus OpenBSD - for example, i'm, mm, 'not a fan' of the somewhat cavalier attitude towards documentation that can often be found in the Linux world, so i'm grateful for people like Alejandro Colomar and his extensive work on the Linux man-pages project. But i feel the above thread suggests that either the FreeBSD devs are clueless about shell scripting or - as i feel is actually the case - that service management via shell scripting isn't as straightforward as one might assume. Alexis.