From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 707BA23CD6 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 07:55:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48E7436ED; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 15:55:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pl1-x631.google.com (mail-pl1-x631.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::631]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5549436EC for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 15:55:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pl1-x631.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1f70fdc9644so45370575ad.0 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 2024 22:55:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1718690112; x=1719294912; darn=tuhs.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:message-id:date:references :in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=/opUshTG9wFeUsoWnmmDbrzQsUCau8htiUxUYajH2aI=; b=b77bgWh64Z1wh100auhhjkNb1dgr+Uo3tmR7jjA+t2L6j/55VmUn552Jwtc8v2nRBv oF72HzZAXSeqgF4+k8N3TdgROcxZrsSrwOi7nnL0JctgOtEmlAP0eKywiIFIj4ObPLxO v2AcL+twpseu5kUJ9uyWWY+oHCQqWus5TP+ep9SEIh9Tli/TQUd0JCqZILlRfmMBKgt4 IzmUo48TjD2rOHQU5jNwH8RTn4Gx5RUJVbvMs6w0fspkHTlo1sRjLaxwkLfAGS/Sm4La N2m1OatwAvu/csrJ5GLHVq3NWA1wA5ZcnpaI4O8sUrP0aCkUdGX8zqX2ikM8Qdl3XWUY nFlQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718690112; x=1719294912; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:message-id:date:references :in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=/opUshTG9wFeUsoWnmmDbrzQsUCau8htiUxUYajH2aI=; b=Xd4jcevMgABiWbikTTck2fkg1WhaNHDCANtsD4xyGzkfivN+ka2PoGRomBObUW5wFa BZuhNWHNym3hG4s30GBcTfYw7Wz6IaX7NZY16KbqYsxrV/vItIS4QLcHiWlS36AlgcKa NYqgK87QjvPLoi7HzzsV9EJ1BAFP6m5ENgiAuXmbnGbDSFl2dYD5QtH6r23QQW2xtxLN FoofpCAy7BfNH6d50pfqpou5Lh8Oj2IBingD8wZD65spTgCeZsTEZl+mW9LNzDESB4dL h6uV4q7bj3M778KsRZPovsIHvNa+j7RVId99obDnVxDHtsfgoRe7f9ZFMGwyM28xL+FY 05Mg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyZ4SpKpo7yUsiqhfL7qCpZVMq8nOfM0rlctZCSY44vZ4iABADp 8opJUB46ZalXXoGcW6G8aKUP7BcWESbazvV9u1Oz1WcdGVQHTTBdAjt9ZA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGow4W17cP0dz/GMHA877sUk5zJVhASEl8vNc/w++AQ+6qDRmJM7Vh0s68FQuX9hvEyfRy5Cg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:22c2:b0:1f7:2185:d2d9 with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1f98b213328mr24483625ad.5.1718690111836; Mon, 17 Jun 2024 22:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([203.221.118.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d9443c01a7336-1f855e56540sm89547305ad.10.2024.06.17.22.55.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 17 Jun 2024 22:55:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Alexis To: The Unix Heritage Society In-Reply-To: <1841E020-8BDD-4997-A319-2FFEE75F84A5@pobox.com> (David Arnold's message of "Mon, 17 Jun 2024 07:56:20 +1000") References: <1841E020-8BDD-4997-A319-2FFEE75F84A5@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 15:55:08 +1000 Message-ID: <87jzim3idf.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: 5ZW7REBVD6OU2VK5L5VYXN4YW6UYXL2T X-Message-ID-Hash: 5ZW7REBVD6OU2VK5L5VYXN4YW6UYXL2T X-MailFrom: flexibeast@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' The Register List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: David Arnold writes: > Users reasonably want things to work, and Red Hat wants to=20 > satisfy > those users, and they=E2=80=99ve chosen this way to do=20 > it. Unfortunately, > there=E2=80=99s been no real competition: this goes well beyond system > startup, and well beyond service management, and citing s6 or=20 > launchd > or whatever misses the war by focusing on the battle. Good point. The problem that D-Bus attempts to solve is communication between=20 components and applications designed for different desktop=20 environments. i wasn't paying particular attention at the time, so=20 i don't know what more Unix-y alternatives were proposed, if=20 any. Laurent Bercot, the developer of s6[a], has created a=20 bare-bones proof-of-concept alternative: https://skarnet.org/software/skabus/ but this hasn't been taken further, as his priorities have been=20 elsewhere. Wayland is an attempt to solve various issues and limitations of=20 X. It's not a project by people who don't understand X; as an=20 example, Matthieu Herbb, an Xorg dev and a primary OpenBSD dev in=20 this area, did a presentation last year in which he said "X11 is=20 fading away" and "Wayland is the way to go for graphical desktop": https://2023.eurobsdcon.org/slides/eurobsdcon2023-matthieu_herrb-wayland-= openbsd.pdf The problem is, people who aren't facing the issues and=20 limitations faced by others are unlikely to have any motivation to=20 work on, or support, the development of alternatives. This leaves=20 the field of proposed solutions open to those with a different=20 approach and/or a desire for r=C3=A9sum=C3=A9-driven development, regardles= s=20 of the quality of the design and/or implementation. But even when=20 the people working on alternatives are people who understand the=20 problem space, those for whom the existing solution is perfectly=20 adequate are unlikely to provide input regarding the development=20 of those alternatives - so when a particular alternative gains=20 sufficient momentum that those people are forced to start dealing=20 with it, they might find it unusable for their use-case(s). In other words, the war is pretty much lost at the outset, and=20 people are left fighting battles that, in the medium-to-long term,=20 are likely to turn out to be quixotic. Alexis. [a] i would say s6 is very much in the spirit of "the Unix=20 philosophy": a suite small focused programs that can be combined=20 in various ways, "mechanism not policy", and utilising fundamental=20 Unix features. As Laurent writes at the end of the page about the=20 s6 approach to 'socket activation', to which i linked upthread: > You don't have to use specific libraries or write complex unit=20 > files, you just need to understand how a command line=20 > works. This is Unix. -- https://skarnet.org/software/s6/socket-activation.html Nevertheless, he's also noted, back in 2020, the real-world issues=20 that have been an obstacle to s6's uptake: > The fact is that a full-featured init system *is* a complex=20 > beast, and the s6 stack does nothing more than is strictly=20 > needed, but it exposes all the tools, all the entrails, all the=20 > workings of the system, and that is a lot for non-specialists to=20 > handle. Integrated init systems, such as systemd, are=20 > significantly *more* complex than the s6 stack, but they do a=20 > better job of *hiding* the complexity, and presenting a=20 > relatively simple interface. That is why, despite being=20 > technically inferior (on numerous metrics: bugs, length of code=20 > paths, resource consumption, actual modularity, flexibility,=20 > portability, etc.), they are more easily accepted: they are just=20 > less intimidating. > > As a friend told me, and it was an enlightening moment: you are=20 > keeping the individual parts simple, but in doing so, you are=20 > moving the complexity to the *interactions* between the parts,=20 > and are burdening the user with that complexity. You are keeping=20 > the code simple, which has undeniable maintainability benefits,=20 > but you are making the administration more difficult, and the=20 > trade-off is not good enough for a lot of users.=20 -- https://skarnet.org/lists/supervision/2586.html