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* [TUHS] Document management in Unix, back in the day?
@ 2022-02-04 17:01 Will Senn
  2022-02-04 17:35 ` Seth J. Morabito
  2022-05-13  4:01 ` Kevin Bowling
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Will Senn @ 2022-02-04 17:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list

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Today I bit the bullet and dropped my many articles and electronic 
documents related to my technical explorations into Zotero. I was tired 
of constantly having to remember where the documents were located and I 
wanted to be able to curate them better (I tried git for a while, back 
when, but I'm not a fan of non-text data in my repos, and it wasn't 
really much better than the base file system approach). I've been using 
Zotero for years now, for academic works, but not for technical works 
unrelated to my research. I realized the man-years of effort to clean up 
the entries that I had created in about 30-40 seconds of exciting drag 
and drop, just about the time I deleted them from their original 
locations. I think the work will pay off in due time, but we'll see.

Then I thought, surely, I'm not the first person to have had this 
problem... it occurred to me that y'all must have faced this very 
problem, a few years in, back in the late 70's, early 80's. That is, 
document management. What did you do, variously, considering both text 
and non-text?

Will


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* Re: [TUHS] Document management in Unix, back in the day?
  2022-02-04 17:01 [TUHS] Document management in Unix, back in the day? Will Senn
@ 2022-02-04 17:35 ` Seth J. Morabito
  2022-02-04 17:43   ` Adam Thornton
  2022-02-04 20:51   ` John Cowan
  2022-05-13  4:01 ` Kevin Bowling
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Seth J. Morabito @ 2022-02-04 17:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> writes:
> Then I thought, surely, I'm not the first person to have had this
> problem... it occurred to me that y'all must have faced this very
> problem, a few years in, back in the late 70's, early 80's. That is,
> document management. What did you do, variously, considering both text
> and non-text?

I'm sure the vast majority of document management was in real folders in
real filing cabinets. We take our vast stores of electronic documents
for granted these days, but it's shockingly recent in computing terms!

Besides, it's fun to scribble notes all over printouts and Xeroxes :^)

> Will

-Seth
-- 
Seth Morabito
web@loomcom.com
Poulsbo, WA, USA

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Document management in Unix, back in the day?
  2022-02-04 17:35 ` Seth J. Morabito
@ 2022-02-04 17:43   ` Adam Thornton
  2022-02-04 20:51   ` John Cowan
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Adam Thornton @ 2022-02-04 17:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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Don Lancaster's "Tearing" method of understanding Apple II assembly
programs, but, really, generalizable to anything, is, forty years later,
*still* magnificent.  https://www.tinaja.com/ebooks/tearing_rework.pdf


On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 10:40 AM Seth J. Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote:

>
> Besides, it's fun to scribble notes all over printouts and Xeroxes :^)
>
>

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* Re: [TUHS] Document management in Unix, back in the day?
  2022-02-04 17:35 ` Seth J. Morabito
  2022-02-04 17:43   ` Adam Thornton
@ 2022-02-04 20:51   ` John Cowan
  2022-05-13  1:09     ` Michael Parson
  2022-05-13  2:41     ` Bakul Shah
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: John Cowan @ 2022-02-04 20:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Seth J. Morabito; +Cc: TUHS main list

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On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 12:39 PM Seth J. Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote:

Besides, it's fun to scribble notes all over printouts and Xeroxes :^)
>

I mark up a printout with scribbles ("hourglasses and arrows and a
documentation resource for each one, sayin' what they was about, to be used
in evidence against us"[*]) and then re-transcribe them into the original
electronic doc.  I wish I had a better approach that wasn't so
environmentally destructive, but I just don't notice errors as easily when
they're just on the screen.

[*] See <
https://web.archive.org/web/20210321003206/http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan/alice_flame.txt>.
With feeling.

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* Re: [TUHS] Document management in Unix, back in the day?
  2022-02-04 20:51   ` John Cowan
@ 2022-05-13  1:09     ` Michael Parson
  2022-05-13  1:52       ` George Michaelson
  2022-05-13  2:41     ` Bakul Shah
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Michael Parson @ 2022-05-13  1:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list

On Fri, 4 Feb 2022, John Cowan wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 12:39 PM Seth J. Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote:
>
> Besides, it's fun to scribble notes all over printouts and Xeroxes :^)
>>
>
> I mark up a printout with scribbles ("hourglasses and arrows and a
> documentation resource for each one, sayin' what they was about, to be used
> in evidence against us"[*]) and then re-transcribe them into the original
> electronic doc.  I wish I had a better approach that wasn't so
> environmentally destructive, but I just don't notice errors as easily when
> they're just on the screen.

Have you looked into e-ink tablets?  The reMarkable series seems to be
pretty popular.  I recently got a Boox Nova Air e-ink tablet, works
great as an e-reader, but it also has a pretty decent PDF editor built
in that lets you scribble all over PDF docs like they're paper.

-- 
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Document management in Unix, back in the day?
  2022-05-13  1:09     ` Michael Parson
@ 2022-05-13  1:52       ` George Michaelson
  2022-05-13  2:04         ` Michael Parson
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: George Michaelson @ 2022-05-13  1:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Michael Parson; +Cc: TUHS main list

heading off-piste, the Boox series are also worth looking at. Android,
anything android can do, a boox will do slowly in eInk. their version
of the reMarkable markup thing may not be as "good" but its the
alternate, and alternate pricepoint.

when I think about the BSD manuals, bound with steel rods, in a metal
construct welded to the desk at the back of the lab. Wonderful source
of knowledge. Or.. the VMS fiche set, and the reader. you want to fix
this problem? ok, if you learn Bliss32, then everything is in this
stack of blue-grey plastic, if your eyes are good enough. No peeking.

I think the experiential aspects of 2D thinking with pens, on paper
are lost online. I totally don't engage with "visualisations" beyond
the very very good. It is very easy to avoid having to say why by
falling back on "my eyes aren't good" or "I don't understand this" but
in truth, I dont LIKE them. I like paper, and I miss fanfold printout.
Plus. I liked taking the boxes of it to kindergarden and handing them
over for the kids to write on.

On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 11:33 AM Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 4 Feb 2022, John Cowan wrote:
> > On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 12:39 PM Seth J. Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > Besides, it's fun to scribble notes all over printouts and Xeroxes :^)
> >>
> >
> > I mark up a printout with scribbles ("hourglasses and arrows and a
> > documentation resource for each one, sayin' what they was about, to be used
> > in evidence against us"[*]) and then re-transcribe them into the original
> > electronic doc.  I wish I had a better approach that wasn't so
> > environmentally destructive, but I just don't notice errors as easily when
> > they're just on the screen.
>
> Have you looked into e-ink tablets?  The reMarkable series seems to be
> pretty popular.  I recently got a Boox Nova Air e-ink tablet, works
> great as an e-reader, but it also has a pretty decent PDF editor built
> in that lets you scribble all over PDF docs like they're paper.
>
> --
> Michael Parson
> Pflugerville, TX

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Document management in Unix, back in the day?
  2022-05-13  1:52       ` George Michaelson
@ 2022-05-13  2:04         ` Michael Parson
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Michael Parson @ 2022-05-13  2:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list

On Fri, 13 May 2022, George Michaelson wrote:

> heading off-piste, the Boox series are also worth looking at. Android,
> anything android can do, a boox will do slowly in eInk. their version
> of the reMarkable markup thing may not be as "good" but its the
> alternate, and alternate pricepoint.

I love my Boox Nova Air.  I carry with me just about everywhere.  I can
read the book I'm currently reading, plus I also scribble notes and
doodles in the note app.  I've doodled ideas for things I later work up
in FreeCAD for 3D printing.  If my focus was more on the note taking and
drawing, I'd have gone for the bigger, closer to sheet-of-paper sized
devices, but I primarily wanted an e-ink e-reader that could also do
other things.  So far, I've been very impressed with the other things it
could do.

I've been a fan of e-ink displays for a long time.  I really wish
someone would make a reasonbly priced 20+ inch e-ink monitor.  Most of
the stuff I deal with is in text, and working with text on an e-ink
display would be so much easier on the eyes.

I only mentioned the reMarkable because it seems to be one of the
popular ones out there, or maybe they just have better marketing.  I
think my wife said that one of the women she works with at her design
firm has a reMarkable and loves it.

> when I think about the BSD manuals, bound with steel rods, in a metal
> construct welded to the desk at the back of the lab. Wonderful source
> of knowledge. Or.. the VMS fiche set, and the reader. you want to fix
> this problem? ok, if you learn Bliss32, then everything is in this
> stack of blue-grey plastic, if your eyes are good enough. No peeking.
>
> I think the experiential aspects of 2D thinking with pens, on paper
> are lost online. I totally don't engage with "visualisations" beyond
> the very very good. It is very easy to avoid having to say why by
> falling back on "my eyes aren't good" or "I don't understand this" but
> in truth, I dont LIKE them. I like paper, and I miss fanfold printout.
> Plus. I liked taking the boxes of it to kindergarden and handing them
> over for the kids to write on.

I miss fan-fold paper too... I pretty much quit printing out program
listings when I quit having tractor-fed printers.  It just wasn't the
same.  Also, no more multi-page big-text banners. :)

-- 
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX

> On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 11:33 AM Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 Feb 2022, John Cowan wrote:
>>> On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 12:39 PM Seth J. Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Besides, it's fun to scribble notes all over printouts and Xeroxes :^)
>>>>
>>>
>>> I mark up a printout with scribbles ("hourglasses and arrows and a
>>> documentation resource for each one, sayin' what they was about, to be used
>>> in evidence against us"[*]) and then re-transcribe them into the original
>>> electronic doc.  I wish I had a better approach that wasn't so
>>> environmentally destructive, but I just don't notice errors as easily when
>>> they're just on the screen.
>>
>> Have you looked into e-ink tablets?  The reMarkable series seems to be
>> pretty popular.  I recently got a Boox Nova Air e-ink tablet, works
>> great as an e-reader, but it also has a pretty decent PDF editor built
>> in that lets you scribble all over PDF docs like they're paper.
>>
>> --
>> Michael Parson
>> Pflugerville, TX
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Document management in Unix, back in the day?
  2022-02-04 20:51   ` John Cowan
  2022-05-13  1:09     ` Michael Parson
@ 2022-05-13  2:41     ` Bakul Shah
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2022-05-13  2:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list

On Feb 4, 2022, at 12:51 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 12:39 PM Seth J. Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote:
> 
> Besides, it's fun to scribble notes all over printouts and Xeroxes :^)
> 
> I mark up a printout with scribbles ("hourglasses and arrows and a documentation resource for each one, sayin' what they was about, to be used in evidence against us"[*]) and then re-transcribe them into the original electronic doc.  I wish I had a better approach that wasn't so environmentally destructive, but I just don't notice errors as easily when they're just on the screen.
> 
> [*] See <https://web.archive.org/web/20210321003206/http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan/alice_flame.txt>. With feeling.

There are iPad apps such as CollaNote (free) & GoodNotes ($)
which allow you to write/scribble/doodle with an Apple
Pencil. Note the same experience but there are some other
benefits. You can zoom in to write small, easy ink color
change, moving portions of written text, OCR, search,
hyperlinks, digital planners, synchronized audio (with
writing) etc. You can paste in pictures, videos, pdf and so
on. And now you can easily scribble/highlight on any PDF etc.
For some things I still prefer computation notebooks with 4x4
Quad light green paper but increasingly I am relying on the
iADHD device!  In any case I still prefer writing as opposed
to typing when {t,m}aking notes and for design notes or
sketching new ideas. The writing experience on the ipad is
not great even with a paperLike(TM) plastic screen protector
But I can live with that.

In contrast the Unix GUI experience is falling further and
further behind. Wish it weren't so.

I haven't used any e-ink device as they are expensive and they
seem limited in other ways compared to the iPad.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Document management in Unix, back in the day?
  2022-02-04 17:01 [TUHS] Document management in Unix, back in the day? Will Senn
  2022-02-04 17:35 ` Seth J. Morabito
@ 2022-05-13  4:01 ` Kevin Bowling
  2022-05-13  4:08   ` Adam Thornton
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Kevin Bowling @ 2022-05-13  4:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Will Senn; +Cc: TUHS main list

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On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 10:02 AM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:

> Today I bit the bullet and dropped my many articles and electronic
> documents related to my technical explorations into Zotero. I was tired of
> constantly having to remember where the documents were located and I wanted
> to be able to curate them better (I tried git for a while, back when, but
> I'm not a fan of non-text data in my repos, and it wasn't really much
> better than the base file system approach). I've been using Zotero for
> years now, for academic works, but not for technical works unrelated to my
> research. I realized the man-years of effort to clean up the entries that I
> had created in about 30-40 seconds of exciting drag and drop, just about
> the time I deleted them from their original locations. I think the work
> will pay off in due time, but we'll see.
>
> Then I thought, surely, I'm not the first person to have had this
> problem... it occurred to me that y'all must have faced this very problem,
> a few years in, back in the late 70's, early 80's. That is, document
> management. What did you do, variously, considering both text and non-text?
>
>
Emacs org-mode comes to mind


> Will
>
>
>

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* Re: [TUHS] Document management in Unix, back in the day?
  2022-05-13  4:01 ` Kevin Bowling
@ 2022-05-13  4:08   ` Adam Thornton
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Adam Thornton @ 2022-05-13  4:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Kevin Bowling; +Cc: TUHS main list

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> On May 12, 2022, at 9:01 PM, Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling@kev009.com> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 10:02 AM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com <mailto:will.senn@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Today I bit the bullet and dropped my many articles and electronic documents related to my technical explorations into Zotero. I was tired of constantly having to remember where the documents were located and I wanted to be able to curate them better (I tried git for a while, back when, but I'm not a fan of non-text data in my repos, and it wasn't really much better than the base file system approach). I've been using Zotero for years now, for academic works, but not for technical works unrelated to my research. I realized the man-years of effort to clean up the entries that I had created in about 30-40 seconds of exciting drag and drop, just about the time I deleted them from their original locations. I think the work will pay off in due time, but we'll see. 
> 
> Then I thought, surely, I'm not the first person to have had this problem... it occurred to me that y'all must have faced this very problem, a few years in, back in the late 70's, early 80's. That is, document management. What did you do, variously, considering both text and non-text?
> 
> 
> Emacs org-mode comes to mind 

And if you happen to need presentations....

https://github.com/yjwen/org-reveal

That's right: Javascript slide deck directly from org-mode.

Better than sliced bread.

Adam


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end of thread, other threads:[~2022-05-13  4:09 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 10+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-02-04 17:01 [TUHS] Document management in Unix, back in the day? Will Senn
2022-02-04 17:35 ` Seth J. Morabito
2022-02-04 17:43   ` Adam Thornton
2022-02-04 20:51   ` John Cowan
2022-05-13  1:09     ` Michael Parson
2022-05-13  1:52       ` George Michaelson
2022-05-13  2:04         ` Michael Parson
2022-05-13  2:41     ` Bakul Shah
2022-05-13  4:01 ` Kevin Bowling
2022-05-13  4:08   ` Adam Thornton

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