The Unix Heritage Society mailing list
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
@ 2020-03-20 14:03 Noel Chiappa
  2020-03-20 14:08 ` Richard Salz
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Noel Chiappa @ 2020-03-20 14:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc

    > From: Paul Guertin

    > I teach math in college ... Sometimes, during an exam, a student who
    > forgot to bring their calculator will ask if they can borrow mine I
    > always say "sure, but you'll regret it" and hand them the calculator
    > After wasting one or two minutes, they give it back

Maybe I'm being clueless/over-asking, but to me it's appalling that any
college student (at least all who have _any_ math requirement at all; not sure
how many that is) doesn't know how an RPN calculator works. It's not exactly
rocket science, and any reasonably intelligent high-schooler should get it
extremely quickly; just tell them it's just a representational thing, number
number operator instead of number operator number. I know it's not a key
intellectual skill, but it does seem to me to be part of comon intellectual
heritage that everyone should know, like musical scales or poetry
rhyming. Have you ever considered taking two minutes (literally!) to cover it
briefly, just 'someone tried to borrow my RPN calculator, here's the basic
idea of how they work'?

	Noel


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 14:03 [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs Noel Chiappa
@ 2020-03-20 14:08 ` Richard Salz
  2020-03-20 14:52   ` Larry McVoy
  2020-03-20 21:57   ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-03-20 15:07 ` Nemo
  2020-03-20 16:07 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Richard Salz @ 2020-03-20 14:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 195 bytes --]

A cool thing about tools is that you never know how it will be used.

Bach's prelude in C major from Well-Tempered Clavier book I, written in
pure (GNU) sed: https://github.com/laserbat/bach.sed

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 322 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 14:08 ` Richard Salz
@ 2020-03-20 14:52   ` Larry McVoy
  2020-03-20 14:58     ` Dagobert Michelsen
                       ` (3 more replies)
  2020-03-20 21:57   ` Dave Horsfall
  1 sibling, 4 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-03-20 14:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Richard Salz; +Cc: TUHS main list

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 10:08:50AM -0400, Richard Salz wrote:
> A cool thing about tools is that you never know how it will be used.
> 
> Bach's prelude in C major from Well-Tempered Clavier book I, written in
> pure (GNU) sed: https://github.com/laserbat/bach.sed

If someone understands how this all works, my less capable brain would
love an explanation.  My dad and my kid have told me that classical
music is math but I've never seen it.  Seems like this is probably
the example I need.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 14:52   ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-03-20 14:58     ` Dagobert Michelsen
  2020-03-20 15:05       ` Richard Salz
  2020-03-20 22:09       ` Mike Markowski
  2020-03-20 15:03     ` Gregg Levine
                       ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  3 siblings, 2 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Dagobert Michelsen @ 2020-03-20 14:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: TUHS main list

Hi Larry,

Am 20.03.2020 um 15:52 schrieb Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com>:
> If someone understands how this all works, my less capable brain would
> love an explanation.  My dad and my kid have told me that classical
> music is math but I've never seen it.  Seems like this is probably
> the example I need.

For this topic I’d recommend the excellent book "Gödel, Escher, Bach:
An Eternal Golden Braid“ from Douglas R. Hofstadter which discusses
the relationship especially between Bach and math and also gives a
nice introduction into logic and philosopy.


Best regards — Dago

-- 
"You don't become great by trying to be great, you become great by wanting to do something,
and then doing it so hard that you become great in the process." - xkcd #896


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 14:52   ` Larry McVoy
  2020-03-20 14:58     ` Dagobert Michelsen
@ 2020-03-20 15:03     ` Gregg Levine
  2020-03-20 15:05       ` Chet Ramey
  2020-03-20 22:06     ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-03-21  4:59     ` Wesley Parish
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: Gregg Levine @ 2020-03-20 15:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: TUHS main list

Hello!
Actually  it is. Some years ago a chap wrote a book comparing Bach,
(who has a birth anniversary tomorrow), and that artist who draws
illusions and another mathematician as well.It caused an even bigger
upset then the OS we discuss here.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 10:53 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 10:08:50AM -0400, Richard Salz wrote:
> > A cool thing about tools is that you never know how it will be used.
> >
> > Bach's prelude in C major from Well-Tempered Clavier book I, written in
> > pure (GNU) sed: https://github.com/laserbat/bach.sed
>
> If someone understands how this all works, my less capable brain would
> love an explanation.  My dad and my kid have told me that classical
> music is math but I've never seen it.  Seems like this is probably
> the example I need.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 14:58     ` Dagobert Michelsen
@ 2020-03-20 15:05       ` Richard Salz
  2020-03-20 22:09       ` Mike Markowski
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Richard Salz @ 2020-03-20 15:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dagobert Michelsen; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 68 bytes --]

It reads a text stream and outputs commands to drive a MIDI player.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 125 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 15:03     ` Gregg Levine
@ 2020-03-20 15:05       ` Chet Ramey
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Chet Ramey @ 2020-03-20 15:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Gregg Levine, Larry McVoy; +Cc: TUHS main list

On 3/20/20 11:03 AM, Gregg Levine wrote:
> Hello!
> Actually  it is. Some years ago a chap wrote a book comparing Bach,
> (who has a birth anniversary tomorrow), and that artist who draws
> illusions and another mathematician as well.It caused an even bigger
> upset then the OS we discuss here.

One of the best books I read in high school. I loved it.

-- 
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
		 ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU    chet@case.edu    http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 14:03 [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs Noel Chiappa
  2020-03-20 14:08 ` Richard Salz
@ 2020-03-20 15:07 ` Nemo
  2020-03-20 19:03   ` Adam Thornton
  2020-03-20 16:07 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: Nemo @ 2020-03-20 15:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noel Chiappa; +Cc: tuhs

On 20/03/2020, Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>     > From: Paul Guertin
>
>     > I teach math in college ... Sometimes, during an exam, a student who
>     > forgot to bring their calculator will ask if they can borrow mine I
>     > always say "sure, but you'll regret it" and hand them the calculator
>     > After wasting one or two minutes, they give it back
>
> [,,,]

> [...] and any reasonably intelligent high-schooler should get it
> extremely quickly; just tell them it's just a representational thing,
> number number operator instead of number operator number.

A former colleague -- electronics engineer, to boot -- told me that he
refuses to use RPN calculators because one will not always be
available and he does not want to become "dependent" on it.

Offsetting that, my wife -- who does not work in a technical field --
swears by her 32S (and still has her 35 somewhere).  I have my
caculators on my Macs all set to RPN.

Perhaps a bit mean of me, but when people were befuddled, I used to
say that my calculators used "natural" input.

N.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 14:03 [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs Noel Chiappa
  2020-03-20 14:08 ` Richard Salz
  2020-03-20 15:07 ` Nemo
@ 2020-03-20 16:07 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-09-13 15:44   ` Juergen Nickelsen
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-03-20 16:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: coff

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3761 bytes --]

+COFF

On 3/20/20 8:03 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> Maybe I'm being clueless/over-asking, but to me it's appalling that 
> any college student (at least all who have _any_ math requirement at 
> all; not sure how many that is) doesn't know how an RPN calculator 
> works.

I'm sure that there are some people, maybe not the corpus you mention, 
that have zero clue how an RPN calculator works.  But I would expect 
anybody with a little gumption to be able to poke a few buttons and 
probably figure out the basic operation, or, ask if they are genuinely 
confused.

> It's not exactly rocket science, and any reasonably intelligent 
> high-schooler should get it extremely quickly; just tell them it's 
> just a representational thing, number number operator instead of 
> number operator number.

I agree that RPN is not rocket science.  And for basic single operation 
equations, I think that it's largely interchangeable with infix notation.

However, my experience is, as the number of operations goes up, RPN can 
become more difficult to use.  This is likely a mental shortcoming on my 
part.  But it is something that does take tractable mental effort for me 
to do.

For example, let's start with Pythagorean Theorem

    a² + b² = c²

This is relatively easy to enter in infix notation on a typical 
scientific calculator.

However, I have to stop and think about how to enter this on an RPN 
calculator.  I'll take a swing at this, but I might get it wrong, and I 
don't have anything handy to test at the moment.

[a] [enter]
[a] [enter]
[multiply]
[b] [enter]
[b] [enter]
[multiply]
[add]
[square root]   # to solve for c

(12 keys)

Conversely infix notation for comparison.

[a]
[square]
[plus]
[b]
[square]
[square root]

(6 keys)

As I type this, I realize that I'm using higher order operations 
(square) in infix than I am in RPN.  But that probably speaks to my 
ignorance of RPN.

I also realize that this equation does a poor job at demonstrating what 
I'm trying to convey.  —  Or perhaps what I'm trying to convey is 
incorrect.  —  I had to arrange sub-different parts of the equation so 
that their results ended up together on the stack for them to be the 
targets of the operation.  I believe this (re)arrangement of the 
equation is where most of my mental load / objection comes from with 
RPN.  I feel like I have to process the equation before I can tell the 
calculator to compute the result for me.  I don't feel like I have this 
burden with infix notation.

Aside:  I firmly believe that computers are supposed to do our bidding, 
not the other way around.    s/computers/calculators/

> I know it's not a key intellectual skill, but it does seem to me to 
> be part of comon intellectual heritage that everyone should know, 
> like musical scales or poetry rhyming. Have you ever considered 
> taking two minutes (literally!) to cover it briefly, just 'someone 
> tried to borrow my RPN calculator, here's the basic idea of how they 
> work'?

I'm confident that 80% of people, more of the corpus you describe, could 
use an RPN calculator to do simple equations.  But I would not be 
surprised if many found that the re-arrangement of equations to being 
RPN friendly would simply forego the RPN calculator for simpler 
arithmetic operations.

I think some of it is a mental question:  Which has more mental load, 
doing the annoying arithmetic or re-arranging to use RPN.

I believe that for the simpler of the arithmetic operations, RPN is 
going to be more difficult.

All of this being said, I'd love to have someone lay out points and / or 
counterpoints to my understanding.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


[-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --]
[-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4013 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 15:07 ` Nemo
@ 2020-03-20 19:03   ` Adam Thornton
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Adam Thornton @ 2020-03-20 19:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Nemo; +Cc: tuhs, Noel Chiappa



> On Mar 20, 2020, at 8:07 AM, Nemo <cym224@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Offsetting that, my wife -- who does not work in a technical field --
> swears by her 32S (and still has her 35 somewhere).  I have my
> caculators on my Macs all set to RPN.


You can have my HP-28S when you pry it from my cold dead hands.

Adam

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 14:08 ` Richard Salz
  2020-03-20 14:52   ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-03-20 21:57   ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-03-22 18:05     ` Tony Finch
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2020-03-20 21:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020, Richard Salz wrote:

> A cool thing about tools is that you never know how it will be used.

Indeed.  I once wrote a shell script that basically acted as an n-way 
"cut" i.e. you specify the columns you wanted to extract and they ended up 
on the corresponding file descriptors.  Ran into all sorts of bugs, as the 
"obvious" solution didn't work.

> Bach's prelude in C major from Well-Tempered Clavier book I, written in pure
> (GNU) sed: https://github.com/laserbat/bach.sed

I have the Towers of Hanoi written in sendmail.cf, meaning that Sendmail 
is Turing-complete :-)  I can't remember who wrote it.

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 14:52   ` Larry McVoy
  2020-03-20 14:58     ` Dagobert Michelsen
  2020-03-20 15:03     ` Gregg Levine
@ 2020-03-20 22:06     ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-03-21  4:59     ` Wesley Parish
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2020-03-20 22:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 521 bytes --]

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020, Larry McVoy wrote:

>> Bach's prelude in C major from Well-Tempered Clavier book I, written in
>> pure (GNU) sed: https://github.com/laserbat/bach.sed
>
> If someone understands how this all works, my less capable brain would
> love an explanation.  My dad and my kid have told me that classical
> music is math but I've never seen it.  Seems like this is probably
> the example I need.

"Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" by Douglas Hofstadter would 
be a good introduction too.

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 14:58     ` Dagobert Michelsen
  2020-03-20 15:05       ` Richard Salz
@ 2020-03-20 22:09       ` Mike Markowski
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Mike Markowski @ 2020-03-20 22:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

I quoted Hofstadter's sage words in my dissertation intro:

    Hofstadter’s Law: It always takes longer than
    you expect, even when you take into account
    Hofstadter’s Law.

Mike Markowski

On 3/20/20 10:58 AM, Dagobert Michelsen wrote:
> ...For this topic I’d recommend the excellent book "Gödel, Escher, Bach:
> An Eternal Golden Braid“ from Douglas R. Hofstadter which discusses
> the relationship especially between Bach and math and also gives a
> nice introduction into logic and philosopy.
> 
> Best regards — Dago
> 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 14:52   ` Larry McVoy
                       ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2020-03-20 22:06     ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2020-03-21  4:59     ` Wesley Parish
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Wesley Parish @ 2020-03-21  4:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: TUHS main list

In a word: ratios. Each note is in a ratio to each other note being
played, either after, while, or after it is being played. It's called
the harmonic or overtone series, and if you've ever looked at a
half-way decent brass instrument method/tutor, you'll have seen it in
all its glory. The nicer-sounding ratios are the ones usually used -
the octaves, the fifths, the fourths and the thirds. The others, the
sixths, the sevenths and the seconds, tend to clash more and/or add a
mournful tone to the music.

https://www.howmusicreallyworks.com/Pages_Chapter_3/3_2.html
Chapter 3:
How Tones and Overtones REALLY Work
gives a non-technical but mathematically sound description: table 4 is
worth its weight in platinum.

Wesley Parish

On 3/21/20, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 10:08:50AM -0400, Richard Salz wrote:
>> A cool thing about tools is that you never know how it will be used.
>>
>> Bach's prelude in C major from Well-Tempered Clavier book I, written in
>> pure (GNU) sed: https://github.com/laserbat/bach.sed
>
> If someone understands how this all works, my less capable brain would
> love an explanation.  My dad and my kid have told me that classical
> music is math but I've never seen it.  Seems like this is probably
> the example I need.
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 21:57   ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2020-03-22 18:05     ` Tony Finch
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Tony Finch @ 2020-03-22 18:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote:
>
> I have the Towers of Hanoi written in sendmail.cf, meaning that Sendmail is
> Turing-complete :-)  I can't remember who wrote it.

Jonathan Chin: http://www.jhnc.org/hanoi/sendmail-cf.html

It's really easy to fall into the Turing tar-pit, if you have a loop
around regex-based rewriting - and unix mailers often have routing logic
that includes features for rewriting an address and re-routing it.

Tony.
-- 
f.anthony.n.finch  <dot@dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
Thames, Dover: East or southeast 5 to 7, occasionally 4 later. Slight or
moderate. Fair. Good.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 16:07 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-09-13 15:44   ` Juergen Nickelsen
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Juergen Nickelsen @ 2020-09-13 15:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> writes:

> For example, let's start with Pythagorean Theorem
>
>    a² + b² = c²
[...]
> [a] [enter]
> [a] [enter]
> [multiply]
> [b] [enter]
> [b] [enter]
> [multiply]
> [add]
> [square root]   # to solve for c

I do

[a] [square]
[b] [square]
[plus]
[square root]

6 keys. (Many operations push the entered value into the x register
without needing the enter key. Also, like with infix calculators,
usually there is a [x^2] key -- in postfix notation on both!)

> [a]
> [square]
> [plus]
> [b]
> [square]
> [square root]

That would give you the value of [b] and leave some rest of the
operation in the (hidden) registers. Actually you need

[a] [square]
[plus]
[b] [square]
[=]
[square root]

7 keys.

Although I started with infix calculators, I find it easier to work
my way out of more complex nested formulas with RPN than to track
the level of parentheses in my mind. Consider something like this:

   3y * x    / (z + 4k)^2    2w + v!   \
   ------  * | ---------- + ---------- |
   5b + z    \   3b * 4x    ln(x + 2y) /

Now this is a PITA either way, but it comes easier for me with RPN.


[Sorry for the late reply -- I subscribed to TUHS earlier this year
and am only now making my way through it.]

-- 
Kein Wunder, wenn bei Leuten, die tagaus, tagein Zugriff auf alles
haben, was die Welt im Internet anbietet, die Fantasie-Sicherungen
durchbrennen.                                    -- Karl Notter

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
@ 2020-03-21  1:12 Noel Chiappa
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Noel Chiappa @ 2020-03-21  1:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc

    > From: Dagobert Michelsen

    > the excellent book "G=C3=B6del, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid"
    > from Douglas R. Hofstadter which also gives a nice introduction into
    > logic and philosopy.

IIRC, the focus of the book is how systems made out of simple components can
exhibit complex behaviours; in particular, how information-processing systems
can come to develop self-awareness.

    > From: Chet Ramey

    > One of the best books I read in high school. 
    
A book on a very similar topic to GEB, which was _extremely_ important in
developing my understanding of how the universe came to be, is "Recursive
Universe", by William Poundstone, which I recommend very highly to everyone
here. It's still in print, which is really good, because it's not as well
known as it should (IMO) be. It uses an analogy with Conway's Life to explain
how the large-scale structure of the universe can develop from a random
initial state. Buy it now!

	Noel


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 23:20           ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-03-20 23:35             ` Toby Thain
@ 2020-03-21  0:34             ` Rob Pike
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Rob Pike @ 2020-03-21  0:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Oops, that was me. Leftover from a porting attempt. Will fix.

-rob

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:21 AM Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 16 Mar 2020, Rob Pike wrote:
>
> > There's a copy in my github repo for it, along w2006.txt and the salt
> > file.
> >
> > https://github.com/robpike/typo/tree/master/unix
>
> Thanks.
>
> Errkk...  I see that comments weren't exactly his strong point :-)  And
> someone must've added those #include lines, because those files didn't
> exist way back then.
>
> -- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 23:20           ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2020-03-20 23:35             ` Toby Thain
  2020-03-21  0:34             ` Rob Pike
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Toby Thain @ 2020-03-20 23:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 2020-03-20 7:20 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Mar 2020, Rob Pike wrote:
> 
>> There's a copy in my github repo for it, along w2006.txt and the salt
>> file.
>>
>> https://github.com/robpike/typo/tree/master/unix
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Errkk...  I see that comments weren't exactly his strong point :-)  And

*looks at the definition of rand()*


> someone must've added those #include lines, because those files didn't
> exist way back then.
> 
> -- Dave


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-16  0:56         ` Rob Pike
@ 2020-03-20 23:20           ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-03-20 23:35             ` Toby Thain
  2020-03-21  0:34             ` Rob Pike
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2020-03-20 23:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Mon, 16 Mar 2020, Rob Pike wrote:

> There's a copy in my github repo for it, along w2006.txt and the salt 
> file.
>
> https://github.com/robpike/typo/tree/master/unix

Thanks.

Errkk...  I see that comments weren't exactly his strong point :-)  And 
someone must've added those #include lines, because those files didn't 
exist way back then.

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 16:40             ` Jon Steinhart
  2020-03-20 17:23               ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-03-20 18:43               ` Rich Morin
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Rich Morin @ 2020-03-20 18:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list

Back in the 70's, I bought an HP-67 for some ridiculous amount of money.  I only wrote one significant program on it, but I think folks here might find the idea interesting.  My X-Ray astronomy project at NRL (HEAO A1) was using a CDC 3800 for data analysis.  The machine had 48-bit words and used octal to display binary values.  I decided to write a program to convert the binary representation of a floating point number into the numeric value.

For starters, it had to accept a pair of 24-bit values, expressed in (mock) octal.  That is, when I entered 12345, it was actually 12345(8), not 12345(10).  So, the program had to turn these values back into real integers.  It then pulled out the exponent and mantissa, did the appropriate calculations, and displayed the floating-point value.  It worked, but it wasn't all that fast.  As I recall, it took about 30 seconds...

-r


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 16:40             ` Jon Steinhart
@ 2020-03-20 17:23               ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-03-20 18:43               ` Rich Morin
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-03-20 17:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 861 bytes --]


On 3/20/20 10:40 AM, Jon Steinhart wrote:
> RPN is much easier when thinking on the fly; algabraic is much easier
> when copying equations off of a page.

Would you humor me with an example of what you mean by "thinking on the 
fly"?  Either I'm not understanding you or we think differently.

I think I understand the algabraic copying.

> I think that this mainly comes from not having to worry about
> parentheses with RPN.  Moving things around on the stack when having
> to rearrange is easier than having to move things in and out of
> registers.

I'm not following.

With my limited understanding of RPN, I would not currently dare alter 
the stack.  Perhaps that's part of why I find RPN to be more of a 
computational burden in needing to rearrange the equation to align with 
stack order.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


[-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --]
[-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4013 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 15:40           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-03-20 16:40             ` Jon Steinhart
  2020-03-20 17:23               ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-03-20 18:43               ` Rich Morin
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Jon Steinhart @ 2020-03-20 16:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Grant Taylor via TUHS writes:
>
> I'm asking from a point of genuine curiosity.  I've heard many say that
> RPN is easier, or that it takes fewer keys, or otherwise superior to
> infix notation.  But many of the conversations end up somewhat devolving
>
> into religious like comments about preferences, despite starting with
> honest open-minded intentions.  (I hope this one doesn't similarly devolve.)

I've been a RPN fan since I got my first HP-45 when I was a sophomore in
college.  I see the difference between RPN and algebraic notation as follows.
RPN is much easier when thinking on the fly; algabraic is much easier when
copying equations off of a page.  I think that this mainly comes from not
having to worry about parentheses with RPN.  Moving things around on the stack
when having to rearrange is easier than having to move things in and out of
registers.

Jon

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20 11:48         ` paul
@ 2020-03-20 15:40           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-03-20 16:40             ` Jon Steinhart
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-03-20 15:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: coff

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1725 bytes --]

Aside:  I'm sending this reply to TUHS where the message that I'm 
replying to came from.  But i suspect that it should migrate to COFF, 
which I'm CCing.

On 3/20/20 5:48 AM, paul@guertin.net wrote:
> I teach math in college, and I use an RPN calculator as well (it's 
> just easier).

Would you please elaborate on "it's just easier"?

I'm asking from a point of genuine curiosity.  I've heard many say that 
RPN is easier, or that it takes fewer keys, or otherwise superior to 
infix notation.  But many of the conversations end up somewhat devolving 
into religious like comments about preferences, despite starting with 
honest open-minded intentions.  (I hope this one doesn't similarly devolve.)

I've heard that there are fewer keys to press for RPN, but the example 
equations presented have been effectively he same.

I've heard that RPN is mentally easier.  But I apparently don't know 
enough RPN to be able to think in RPN natively to evaluate myself.

I dabble with RPN, including keeping my main calculator app on my smart 
phone in RPN mode.

So I am genuinely interested in understanding why you say that RPN is 
just easier.

> Sometimes, during an exam, a student who forgot to bring their 
> calculator will ask if they can borrow mine. I always say "sure, but 
> you'll regret it" and hand them the calculator. After wasting one or 
> two minutes, they give it back.

~chuckle~

> (Note that I always make sure no calculator is needed for my exams, 
> but it's department policy to authorise non programmable calculators, 
> and it seems to reassure students to have the calculator on the desk, 
> so I don't mind.) >

ACK



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


[-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --]
[-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4013 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-19 21:31       ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2020-03-20 11:48         ` paul
  2020-03-20 15:40           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: paul @ 2020-03-20 11:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

I teach math in college, and I use an RPN calculator as well (it's just easier). Sometimes, during an exam, a student who forgot to bring their calculator will ask if they can borrow mine. I always say "sure, but you'll regret it" and hand them the calculator. After wasting one or two minutes, they give it back.

(Note that I always make sure no calculator is needed for my exams, but it's department policy to authorise non programmable calculators, and it seems to reassure students to have the calculator on the desk, so I don't mind.)


On March 19, 2020 5:31:57 PM EDT, Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote:
>I did that to a financial controller in a previous life; she was not 
>amused...  Hey, it was the only calculator that I had!

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20  7:49   ` Thomas Paulsen
@ 2020-03-20  8:18     ` arnold
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2020-03-20  8:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: thomas.paulsen, arnold; +Cc: tuhs

"Thomas Paulsen" <thomas.paulsen@firemail.de> wrote:

> >Nice of you to stick me in the same sentence with Al and Doug, but
> >I'm not quite in that league... :-)
> with that modesty you are in that league..
>
>

Very off topic, but I know what Al and Doug have done, and I know
what I've done, and I'm not in that league.  But thank you.

'nuff said.

Arnold

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-20  7:14 ` arnold
@ 2020-03-20  7:49   ` Thomas Paulsen
  2020-03-20  8:18     ` arnold
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: Thomas Paulsen @ 2020-03-20  7:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: arnold; +Cc: tuhs

>Nice of you to stick me in the same sentence with Al and Doug, but
>I'm not quite in that league... :-)
with that modesty you are in that league..



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-19 20:57 Nelson H. F. Beebe
  2020-03-19 21:18 ` Tomasz Rola
@ 2020-03-20  7:14 ` arnold
  2020-03-20  7:49   ` Thomas Paulsen
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2020-03-20  7:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs, beebe

"Nelson H. F. Beebe" <beebe@math.utah.edu> wrote:

> Like Al Aho, Doug McIlroy, and Arnold Robbins, I'm a huge fan of awk;

Nice of you to stick me in the same sentence with Al and Doug, but
I'm not quite in that league... :-)

Arnold

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-19 12:26     ` Mike Markowski
@ 2020-03-19 21:31       ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-03-20 11:48         ` paul
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2020-03-19 21:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Computer Old Farts Followers; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Thu, 19 Mar 2020, Mike Markowski wrote:

>> I've been using my trusty HP-42S for so long that I can hardly remember 
>> how to use a "normal" calculator :-)
>
> When my classmate's calculator died during an engineering exam, he asked 
> if he could borrow my spare.  I handed him my HP 32s and after a minute 
> he whispered, "Where's the equals key?"  He gave my calculator back. 
> :-)

I did that to a financial controller in a previous life; she was not 
amused...  Hey, it was the only calculator that I had!  I could see her 
helplessly looking for the "=" key, then I took pity on her.

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-19 20:57 Nelson H. F. Beebe
@ 2020-03-19 21:18 ` Tomasz Rola
  2020-03-20  7:14 ` arnold
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Tomasz Rola @ 2020-03-19 21:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 02:57:59PM -0600, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote:
[...]
> 
> If you want to tackle raw HTML from abitrary source, then I agree with
> you: most HTML on the Web is not grammar conformant, there are
> numerous vendor extensions, and the HTML is hideously idiosynchratic
> and irregularly formatted.
> 
> The solution that I adopted 25 years ago was to write a grammar
> recognizing, but violation lenient, prettyprinter for HTML.  It has
> served well and I use it many times daily for my work in the BibNet
> Project and TeX User Group bibliography archives, now approaching 1.55
> million entries.  The latest public release is available here:
> 
> 	http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/sgml/

Thank you, I will have a longer look at those archives. My plan so far
was to explore html files with CL and Slime (interactive mode for CL
inside Emacs), which would allow me to actually find out what I want
to be looking for - well, hopefully :-).

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com             **

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
@ 2020-03-19 20:57 Nelson H. F. Beebe
  2020-03-19 21:18 ` Tomasz Rola
  2020-03-20  7:14 ` arnold
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Nelson H. F. Beebe @ 2020-03-19 20:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3398 bytes --]

Tomasz Rola writes on Thu, 19 Mar 2020 21:01:20 +0100 about awk:

>> One task I would be afraid to use awk for, is html processing. Most of
>> html sources I look at nowadays seems discouraging. Extracting
>> anything of value from the mess requires something more potent, I
>> think.

If you want to tackle raw HTML from abitrary source, then I agree with
you: most HTML on the Web is not grammar conformant, there are
numerous vendor extensions, and the HTML is hideously idiosynchratic
and irregularly formatted.

The solution that I adopted 25 years ago was to write a grammar
recognizing, but violation lenient, prettyprinter for HTML.  It has
served well and I use it many times daily for my work in the BibNet
Project and TeX User Group bibliography archives, now approaching 1.55
million entries.  The latest public release is available here:

	http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/sgml/

I notice that the last version there is 1.01; I'll get that updated in
a couple of days to the latest 1.03 [subject to delays due to major
work dislocations due to the virus].  The code should install anywhere
in the Unix family without problems: I build and validate it on more
than 300 O/Ses in our test farm.

With standardized HTML, applying awk is easy, and I have more than 450
awk programs, and 380,000 lines of code, that process publisher
metadata to produce rough BibTeX entries that numerous other tools,
and some manual editing, turn into clean data for free access on the
Web.

For some journals, I run a single command of fewer than 15 characters
to download Web pages for journal issues for which I do not yet have
data, and then a single journal-specific command with no arguments
that runs a large shell script with a long pipeline that outputs
relatively clean BibTeX that then normally takes me only a couple of
minutes to visually validate in an editor session.  The major work
there is bracing of proper nouns in titles that my software did not
already handle, thereby preventing downcasing of those words in the
many bibliography styles that do so.

I'm on journal announcement lists for many publishers, so I often have
new data released to the Web just 5 to 10 minutes after receiving
e-mail about new issues.

The above-mentioned archives are at
	
	http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/bibnet
	http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib
	http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/index-table.html
	http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/idx
	http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/toc	

They are mirrored at Universität Karlsruhe, Oak Ridge National
Laboratory, Sandia National Laboratory, and elsewhere.

Like Al Aho, Doug McIlroy, and Arnold Robbins, I'm a huge fan of awk;
I believe that I was the first to port it to PDP-10 TOPS-20 and VAX
VMS in the mid-1980s, and it is one of the first mandatory tools that
I install on any new computer.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe                    Tel: +1 801 581 5254                  -
- University of Utah                    FAX: +1 801 581 4148                  -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB    Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu  -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233                       beebe@acm.org  beebe@computer.org -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-17 13:03 ` ca6c
                     ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2020-03-17 22:28   ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2020-03-19 20:01   ` Tomasz Rola
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Tomasz Rola @ 2020-03-19 20:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 09:03:41AM -0400, ca6c@firemail.cc wrote:
> Doug McIlroy wrote:
> >dc
> >
> >The math library for Bob Morris's variable-precision desk
> >calculator used backward error analysis to determine the precision
> >necessary at each step to attain the user-specified precision of
> >the result. In my software-components talk at the 1968 NATO
> >conference on software engineering, I posited measurement-standard
> >routines, which could deliver results of any desired precision, but
> >did not know how to design one. dc still has the only such routines
> >I know of.
> 
> dc, along with ed and I guess awk if we can put it here, is one of my
> favorite Unix programs that I use daily.  I don't even have a "normal"
> calculator installed.  It just smells like Unix.

+1 for (g)awk. After learning it and for many many years treating as
"oh just a lines of text processing" tool, I have rediscovered it
about a year or two ago. It is (IMHO) a very good alternative language
for writing scripts whose complicated control flow might make sh
script error-prone and/or ugly. One such script helps me with sound
processing - doing some tests for recorded file, composing params for
invocation of ecasound (say, check if file needs to be recoded from
48kHz to 44.1kHz etc), and, whoa, invoking ecasound and streaming
bytes to stdout for ogg encoder. The script is part of a pipeline,
takes multiple filenames as args and cats them one by one, each with
the right incantation to ecasound - amplification level, freq changes,
all auto, so much modern, look ma no hands :-).

Another one is changing color temperature of my monitor. I have found
function computing RGB values in someone's code, and the colors were
not what I wanted. So the script also has some named profiles in a
hash table, where values are a line of three floats, which then gets
split()-ed and so on.

Overally, I would consider using (g)awk whenever there is a need to
invoke some commands based on quirky and complicated criteria. I am
sure the scripts could be written in "pure" sh, but something had me
step back from this.

One task I would be afraid to use awk for, is html processing. Most of
html sources I look at nowadays seems discouraging. Extracting
anything of value from the mess requires something more potent, I
think.

> There is something sexy about reverse Polish notation.  I really do
> encourage everyone reading this to try dc as their "desk calculator"
> for some time.

For "desk calculator" I am using clisp, a (relatively) lightweight
Common Lisp interpreter. I got hooked up after discovering that CL had
quite a few numeric types - real rational numbers. making 1/3 and 1/10
easy to have in computer, few floating types, "unlimited" ints,
complex numbers. One has to be wary about unintended type conversion,
but otherwise I found it very useful for my needs.

And for "smart calculator" in a pocket, I would like to use gforth
implementation for Android. Once I make myself comfy enough with Forth
to not have to poke around manual all the time.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com             **

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-17 22:28   ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-03-18  0:17     ` Jon Steinhart
  2020-03-18  8:40     ` arnold
@ 2020-03-19 12:26     ` Mike Markowski
  2020-03-19 21:31       ` Dave Horsfall
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: Mike Markowski @ 2020-03-19 12:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Warren, can I please be added to COFF, where I know this reply should 
go?  Thanks!

On 3/17/20 6:28 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> I've been using my trusty HP-42S for so long that I can hardly remember 
> how to use a "normal" calculator :-)

When my classmate's calculator died during an engineering exam, he asked 
if he could borrow my spare.  I handed him my HP 32s and after a minute 
he whispered, "Where's the equals key?"  He gave my calculator back.  :-)

Mike Markowski

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-17 22:28   ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-03-18  0:17     ` Jon Steinhart
@ 2020-03-18  8:40     ` arnold
  2020-03-19 12:26     ` Mike Markowski
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2020-03-18  8:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs, dave

Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Mar 2020, ca6c@firemail.cc wrote:
>
> > There is something sexy about reverse Polish notation.  I really do 
> > encourage everyone reading this to try dc as their "desk calculator" for 
> > some time.
>
> I've been using my trusty HP-42S for so long that I can hardly remember 
> how to use a "normal" calculator :-)

This might interest you:

	https://github.com/arnoldrobbins/hp

Originally written in Ratfor for the Georgia Tech Software Tools Subsystem
and ported to C by yours truly in the mid-80s. I've kept it up to date
since then and use it almost daily.

Enjoy,

Arnold

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-18  0:17     ` Jon Steinhart
@ 2020-03-18  3:28       ` Dave Horsfall
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2020-03-18  3:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Tue, 17 Mar 2020, Jon Steinhart wrote:

[ Probably orta go to COFF ]

> I use free42 which is a great 42S emulator that doesn't run out of 
> batteries.

Thanks!  Now on my MacBook...

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-17 22:28   ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2020-03-18  0:17     ` Jon Steinhart
  2020-03-18  3:28       ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-03-18  8:40     ` arnold
  2020-03-19 12:26     ` Mike Markowski
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: Jon Steinhart @ 2020-03-18  0:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Dave Horsfall writes:
> On Tue, 17 Mar 2020, ca6c@firemail.cc wrote:
>
> > There is something sexy about reverse Polish notation.  I really do 
> > encourage everyone reading this to try dc as their "desk calculator" for 
> > some time.
>
> I've been using my trusty HP-42S for so long that I can hardly remember 
> how to use a "normal" calculator :-)
>
> Oh, and I was surprised to learn that "bc" is just a front-end to "dc" 
> when I read the manpage more closely; it is indeed the "Unix Way"[tm].
>
> -- Dave

I use free42 which is a great 42S emulator that doesn't run out of batteries.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-17 13:03 ` ca6c
  2020-03-17 13:30   ` Andy Kosela
  2020-03-17 15:40   ` Steve Nickolas
@ 2020-03-17 22:28   ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-03-18  0:17     ` Jon Steinhart
                       ` (2 more replies)
  2020-03-19 20:01   ` Tomasz Rola
  3 siblings, 3 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2020-03-17 22:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Tue, 17 Mar 2020, ca6c@firemail.cc wrote:

> There is something sexy about reverse Polish notation.  I really do 
> encourage everyone reading this to try dc as their "desk calculator" for 
> some time.

I've been using my trusty HP-42S for so long that I can hardly remember 
how to use a "normal" calculator :-)

Oh, and I was surprised to learn that "bc" is just a front-end to "dc" 
when I read the manpage more closely; it is indeed the "Unix Way"[tm].

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-17 13:03 ` ca6c
  2020-03-17 13:30   ` Andy Kosela
@ 2020-03-17 15:40   ` Steve Nickolas
  2020-03-17 22:28   ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-03-19 20:01   ` Tomasz Rola
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Steve Nickolas @ 2020-03-17 15:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ca6c; +Cc: tuhs

On Tue, 17 Mar 2020, ca6c@firemail.cc wrote:

> Doug McIlroy wrote:
>> dc
>> 
>> The math library for Bob Morris's variable-precision desk calculator
>> used backward error analysis to determine the precision necessary at
>> each step to attain the user-specified precision of the result. In
>> my software-components talk at the 1968 NATO conference on software
>> engineering, I posited measurement-standard routines, which could deliver
>> results of any desired precision, but did not know how to design one. dc
>> still has the only such routines I know of.
>
> dc, along with ed and I guess awk if we can put it here, is one of my
> favorite Unix programs that I use daily.  I don't even have a "normal"
> calculator installed.  It just smells like Unix.
>
> There is something sexy about reverse Polish notation.  I really do
> encourage everyone reading this to try dc as their "desk calculator"
> for some time.
>

I personally prefer bc.

Actually, I use GNU's bc on Windows and MS-DOS too.  (Unfortunately the 
traditional version wouldn't work on MS-DOS where it's just a filter to 
dc.)

-uso.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-17 14:57       ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-03-17 14:59         ` Arrigo Triulzi
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Arrigo Triulzi @ 2020-03-17 14:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Historic Society


On 17 Mar 2020, at 15:57, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> As much as I don't care for Forth, man do I wish it had become the standard
> for boot proms, it might not be my cup of tea but I could make it do what
> I needed it to do.  Can't say the same for UEFI, I disable that crap.

Oh yes, if only… instead we got UEFI.

Arrigo


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-17 14:53     ` Cág
@ 2020-03-17 14:57       ` Larry McVoy
  2020-03-17 14:59         ` Arrigo Triulzi
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-03-17 14:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: C??g; +Cc: tuhs

On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 10:53:30AM -0400, C??g wrote:
> Andy Kosela wrote:
> 
> >>dc, along with ed and I guess awk if we can put it here, is one of my
> >>favorite Unix programs that I use daily.  I don't even have a "normal"
> >>calculator installed.  It just smells like Unix.
> >>There is something sexy about reverse Polish notation.  I really do
> >>encourage everyone reading this to try dc as their "desk calculator"
> >>for some time.
> >>
> >So you probably also love Forth, a very underrated language...
> 
> Now I feel bad because I've never heard of it...

I've written a pile of Forth code and while some people love it, I never
warmed up to it.

You've seen it if you have used the Sun boot proms, that was all Forth.

As much as I don't care for Forth, man do I wish it had become the standard
for boot proms, it might not be my cup of tea but I could make it do what
I needed it to do.  Can't say the same for UEFI, I disable that crap.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-17 13:30   ` Andy Kosela
@ 2020-03-17 14:53     ` Cág
  2020-03-17 14:57       ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: Cág @ 2020-03-17 14:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Andy Kosela wrote:

>> dc, along with ed and I guess awk if we can put it here, is one of my
>> favorite Unix programs that I use daily.  I don't even have a "normal"
>> calculator installed.  It just smells like Unix.
>> There is something sexy about reverse Polish notation.  I really do
>> encourage everyone reading this to try dc as their "desk calculator"
>> for some time.
>> 
> So you probably also love Forth, a very underrated language...

Now I feel bad because I've never heard of it...

-- 
caóc

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-17 13:03 ` ca6c
@ 2020-03-17 13:30   ` Andy Kosela
  2020-03-17 14:53     ` Cág
  2020-03-17 15:40   ` Steve Nickolas
                     ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: Andy Kosela @ 2020-03-17 13:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ca6c; +Cc: tuhs

On 3/17/20, ca6c@firemail.cc <ca6c@firemail.cc> wrote:
> Doug McIlroy wrote:
>> dc
>>
>> The math library for Bob Morris's variable-precision desk calculator
>> used backward error analysis to determine the precision necessary at
>> each step to attain the user-specified precision of the result. In
>> my software-components talk at the 1968 NATO conference on software
>> engineering, I posited measurement-standard routines, which could
>> deliver
>> results of any desired precision, but did not know how to design one.
>> dc
>> still has the only such routines I know of.
>
> dc, along with ed and I guess awk if we can put it here, is one of my
> favorite Unix programs that I use daily.  I don't even have a "normal"
> calculator installed.  It just smells like Unix.
>
> There is something sexy about reverse Polish notation.  I really do
> encourage everyone reading this to try dc as their "desk calculator"
> for some time.

So you probably also love Forth, a very underrated language...

--Andy

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-13 23:31 Doug McIlroy
  2020-03-14  0:40 ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-03-14 11:30 ` Harald Arnesen
@ 2020-03-17 13:03 ` ca6c
  2020-03-17 13:30   ` Andy Kosela
                     ` (3 more replies)
  2 siblings, 4 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: ca6c @ 2020-03-17 13:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Doug McIlroy wrote:
> dc
> 
> The math library for Bob Morris's variable-precision desk calculator
> used backward error analysis to determine the precision necessary at
> each step to attain the user-specified precision of the result. In
> my software-components talk at the 1968 NATO conference on software
> engineering, I posited measurement-standard routines, which could 
> deliver
> results of any desired precision, but did not know how to design one. 
> dc
> still has the only such routines I know of.

dc, along with ed and I guess awk if we can put it here, is one of my
favorite Unix programs that I use daily.  I don't even have a "normal"
calculator installed.  It just smells like Unix.

There is something sexy about reverse Polish notation.  I really do
encourage everyone reading this to try dc as their "desk calculator"
for some time.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-15 23:34         ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-03-16  2:45           ` Anthony Martin
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Anthony Martin @ 2020-03-16  2:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warner Losh; +Cc: TUHS main list

Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> once said:
> Well, to be fair, we did eliminate the trip up to userland and back down
> and did the bulk crypto in the kernel... We did do the session
> negotiation in userland though, but once that was done, the rest was done
> in-line in the kernel...

Plan 9 has had the SSL record layer and bulk crypto
in the kernel for almost 25 years. Just sayin'. ☺

Cheers,
  Anthony

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-15 23:20       ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2020-03-16  0:56         ` Rob Pike
  2020-03-20 23:20           ` Dave Horsfall
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: Rob Pike @ 2020-03-16  0:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

There's a copy in my github repo for it, along w2006.txt and the salt file.

https://github.com/robpike/typo/tree/master/unix

-rob

On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 10:21 AM Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 16 Mar 2020, Rob Pike wrote:
>
> > Ha! Someone on hacker news, that fount of profundity, posted the C code
> > for typo and said that it would be a simple matter to update to modern
> > Unix.
>
> [ And it isn't...]
>
> Got a pointer for it?  Wherever it is, it's well hidden...  I'd like to
> see some of that ancient C code; for example, my favourite is:
>
>      int abort 4;
>      ...
>         abort();
>
> Yes, really :-)
>
> -- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-15 22:14       ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-03-15 23:34         ` Warner Losh
  2020-03-16  2:45           ` Anthony Martin
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2020-03-15 23:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1033 bytes --]

On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 4:15 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> It got to be too much, I haven't been on hacker news for several years.
> Even when I was there, the stuff that passed for hacker info was largely
> pathetic.  The one exception I remember was the Netflix write up of how
> they filled two 100Gbit/sec ethernet pipes with 200,000 TCP connections.
> That was extremely impressive, I've worked on problems like that and I
> can assure you that it is trivial to fill those pipes with 2 connections,
> it's extremely hard to do so with 200,000.  And they were coming off SSD,
> up to user space, encrypt in user space, then send it back down to the
> kernel out the pipes.  Super, super impressive but that's the one really
> interesting thing I've seen there in 20 years.
>

Well, to be fair, we did eliminate the trip up to userland and back down
and did the bulk crypto in the kernel... We did do the session
negotiation in userland though, but once that was done, the rest was done
in-line in the kernel...

Warner

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1430 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-15 22:01     ` Rob Pike
  2020-03-15 22:14       ` Larry McVoy
  2020-03-15 22:30       ` Clem Cole
@ 2020-03-15 23:20       ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-03-16  0:56         ` Rob Pike
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2020-03-15 23:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Mon, 16 Mar 2020, Rob Pike wrote:

> Ha! Someone on hacker news, that fount of profundity, posted the C code 
> for typo and said that it would be a simple matter to update to modern 
> Unix.

[ And it isn't...]

Got a pointer for it?  Wherever it is, it's well hidden...  I'd like to 
see some of that ancient C code; for example, my favourite is:

     int abort 4;
     ...
 	abort();

Yes, really :-)

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-15 22:01     ` Rob Pike
  2020-03-15 22:14       ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-03-15 22:30       ` Clem Cole
  2020-03-15 23:20       ` Dave Horsfall
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2020-03-15 22:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Rob Pike; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 851 bytes --]

On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 6:01 PM Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's hard for younger programmers to appreciate how different things once
> were.
>
Amen bro.    But I would add how to do well with less.
To me, the marvel of V6 was how complete it still is.  Other than the lack
of a networking stack, and multiple windows/screens, much of what I still
do day to day as a programmer can be done with 6th edition.   I'd miss Go
and some of the original features of ANSI C, but the editor's we had got
the job, there was even a video version I was happy with.  I used troff to
make slides instead of PPT.  I guess I would miss a Chrome and Gmail, if I
have to go back to MH/HM for email.

FWIW:  I just wrote a QUORA answer and referred folks to your and Brian's
original book. Someone wanted to know as a beginner the 'best way to learn
Ubuntu.'

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1606 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-15 22:01     ` Rob Pike
@ 2020-03-15 22:14       ` Larry McVoy
  2020-03-15 23:34         ` Warner Losh
  2020-03-15 22:30       ` Clem Cole
  2020-03-15 23:20       ` Dave Horsfall
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-03-15 22:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Rob Pike; +Cc: TUHS main list

On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 09:01:46AM +1100, Rob Pike wrote:
> Ha! Someone on hacker news, that fount of profundity, posted the C
> code for typo and said that it would be a simple matter to update to
> modern Unix.

I used to hang out on hacker news, it was one of the few technical
places left.  I left after noticing the guys who run it were protecting
a wack job who every single time something negative was posted about
Round Up, he came up with all sorts of nonsense to defend Monsanto.
Clearly a paid schill.

My dad died at 75 from non-Hodgkins Lymphoma, he wasn't a drinker,
wasn't a smoker, swam multiple times a week, no history of cancer in
the family.  He was convinced that it was Round Up that did him in,
he was a Physics prof but he sort of spanned disciplines, he taught in
the biology department, ecology, he was all over the place.

I'd post my story, the schill would shit all over me, I'd complain to
the powers that be, people who knew me would push back on him, I'm one
of the few systems people hanging out there.

It got to be too much, I haven't been on hacker news for several years.
Even when I was there, the stuff that passed for hacker info was largely
pathetic.  The one exception I remember was the Netflix write up of how
they filled two 100Gbit/sec ethernet pipes with 200,000 TCP connections.
That was extremely impressive, I've worked on problems like that and I
can assure you that it is trivial to fill those pipes with 2 connections,
it's extremely hard to do so with 200,000.  And they were coming off SSD,
up to user space, encrypt in user space, then send it back down to the
kernel out the pipes.  Super, super impressive but that's the one really
interesting thing I've seen there in 20 years.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-14 12:24   ` Clem Cole
@ 2020-03-15 22:01     ` Rob Pike
  2020-03-15 22:14       ` Larry McVoy
                         ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Rob Pike @ 2020-03-15 22:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: TUHS main list

Ha! Someone on hacker news, that fount of profundity, posted the C
code for typo and said that it would be a simple matter to update to
modern Unix.

I tried quite hard to do that years ago, and failed, which is why I
wrote my own version in Go. The original is just barely above
assembler and deeply dependent on CPU, operating system, compiler and
even linker. Hell, evidence shows it couldn't even be ported to v7.

It's hard for younger programmers to appreciate how different things once were.

-rob

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-14 11:30 ` Harald Arnesen
@ 2020-03-14 12:24   ` Clem Cole
  2020-03-15 22:01     ` Rob Pike
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2020-03-14 12:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Harald Arnesen; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1006 bytes --]

It's in the V7 sources and binaries in the TUHS archives:

% find . -name '*struct*' -print
./bin/struct
./usr/lib/struct
./usr/lib/struct/structure
./usr/man/man1/struct.1
./usr/src/cmd/struct

On Sat, Mar 14, 2020 at 7:31 AM Harald Arnesen <skogtun@gmail.com> wrote:

> Doug McIlroy [14.03.2020 00:31]:
>
> > struct
> >
> > Brenda Baker undertook her Fortan-to-Ratfor converter against the advice
> > of her department head--me. I thought it would likely produce an ad hoc
> > reordering of the orginal, freed of statement numbers, but otherwise no
> > more readable than a properly indented Fortran program. Brenda proved
> > me wrong. She discovered that every Fortran program has a canonically
> > structured form. Programmers preferred the canonicalized form to what
> > they had originally written.
>
> I've been trying to find the source to this. I have lots of old
> spaghetti-Fortran routines from a former job, and I would love to try
> making it somewhat understandable.
> --
> Hilsen Harald
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1659 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-13 23:31 Doug McIlroy
  2020-03-14  0:40 ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2020-03-14 11:30 ` Harald Arnesen
  2020-03-14 12:24   ` Clem Cole
  2020-03-17 13:03 ` ca6c
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread
From: Harald Arnesen @ 2020-03-14 11:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Doug McIlroy [14.03.2020 00:31]:

> struct
> 
> Brenda Baker undertook her Fortan-to-Ratfor converter against the advice
> of her department head--me. I thought it would likely produce an ad hoc
> reordering of the orginal, freed of statement numbers, but otherwise no
> more readable than a properly indented Fortran program. Brenda proved
> me wrong. She discovered that every Fortran program has a canonically
> structured form. Programmers preferred the canonicalized form to what
> they had originally written.

I've been trying to find the source to this. I have lots of old
spaghetti-Fortran routines from a former job, and I would love to try
making it somewhat understandable.
-- 
Hilsen Harald

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
  2020-03-13 23:31 Doug McIlroy
@ 2020-03-14  0:40 ` Dave Horsfall
  2020-03-14 11:30 ` Harald Arnesen
  2020-03-17 13:03 ` ca6c
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2020-03-14  0:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, Doug McIlroy wrote:

[ List elided ]

For me coming from RSX-11D and RSTS/E it would have to be the shell; I 
never realised that the command interpreter could be divorced from the OS, 
along with the concept of building new tools with pipes.

Don't like how the shell works?  Then just write your own, as there was 
nothing special about it...

> Originators of nearly half the list--pascal, struct, parts, eqn--were 
> women, well beyond women's demographic share of computer science.

I never realised that; it is indeed worth remembering.

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs
@ 2020-03-13 23:31 Doug McIlroy
  2020-03-14  0:40 ` Dave Horsfall
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: Doug McIlroy @ 2020-03-13 23:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Once in a while a new program really surprises me. Reminiscing a while
ago, I came up with a list of eye-opening Unix gems. Only a couple of
these programs are indispensable or much used. What singles them out is
their originality. I cannot imagine myself inventing any of them.

What programs have struck you similarly?

PDP-7 Unix

The simplicity and power of the system caused me to turn away from big
iron to a tiny machine. It offered the essence of the hierarchical
file system, separate shell, and user-level process control that Multics
had yet to deliver after hundreds of man-years' effort. Unix's lacks
(e.g. record structure in the file system) were as enlightening and
liberating as its novelties (e.g. shell redirection operators).

dc

The math library for Bob Morris's variable-precision desk calculator
used backward error analysis to determine the precision necessary at
each step to attain the user-specified precision of the result. In
my software-components talk at the 1968 NATO conference on software
engineering, I posited measurement-standard routines, which could deliver
results of any desired precision, but did not know how to design one. dc
still has the only such routines I know of.

typo

Typo ordered the words of a text by their similarity to the rest of the
text. Typographic errors like "hte" tended to the front (dissimilar) end
of the list. Bob Morris proudly said it would work as well on Urdu as it
did on English. Although typo didn't help with phonetic misspellings,
it was a godsend for amateur typists, and got plenty of use until the
advent of a much less interesting, but more precise, dictionary-based
spelling checker.

Typo was as surprising inside as it was outside. Its similarity
measure was based on trigram frequencies, which it counted in a 26x26x26
array. The small memory, which had barely room enough for 1-byte counters,
spurred a scheme for squeezing large numbers into small counters. To
avoid overflow, counters were updated probabilistically to maintain an
estimate of the logarithm of the count.

eqn

With the advent of phototypesetting, it became possible, but hideously
tedious, to output classical math notation. Lorinda Cherry set out to
devise a higher-level description language and was soon joined by Brian
Kernighan. Their brilliant stroke was to adapt oral tradition into written
expression, so eqn was remarkably easy to learn. The first of its kind,
eqn has barely been improved upon since.

struct

Brenda Baker undertook her Fortan-to-Ratfor converter against the advice
of her department head--me. I thought it would likely produce an ad hoc
reordering of the orginal, freed of statement numbers, but otherwise no
more readable than a properly indented Fortran program. Brenda proved
me wrong. She discovered that every Fortran program has a canonically
structured form. Programmers preferred the canonicalized form to what
they had originally written.

pascal

The syntax diagnostics from the compiler made by Sue Graham's group at
Berkeley were the mmost helpful I have ever seen--and they were generated
automatically. At a syntax error the compiler would suggest a token that
could be inserted that would allow parsing to proceed further. No attempt
was made to explain what was wrong. The compiler taught me Pascal in
an evening, with no manual at hand.

parts

Hidden inside WWB (writer's workbench), Lorinda Cherry's Parts annotated
English text with parts of speech, based on only a smidgen of English
vocabulary, orthography, and grammar. From Parts markup, WWB inferred
stylometrics such as the prevalance of adjectives, subordinate clauses,
and compound sentences. The Today show picked up on WWB and interviewed
Lorinda about it in the first TV exposure of anything Unix.

egrep

Al Aho expected his deterministic regular-expression recognizer would beat
Ken's classic nondeterministic recognizer. Unfortunately, for single-shot
use on complex regular expressions, Ken's could finish while egrep was
still busy building a deterministic automaton. To finally gain the prize,
Al sidestepped the curse of the automaton's exponentially big state table
by inventing a way to build on the fly only the table entries that are
actually visited during recognition.

crabs

Luca Cardelli's charming meta-program for the Blit window system released
crabs that wandered around in empty screen space nibbling away at the
ever more ragged edges of active windows.

Some common threads

Theory, though invisible on the surface, played a crucial role in the
majority of these programs: typo, dc, struct, pascal, egrep. In fact
much of their surprise lay in the novelty of the application of theory.

Originators of nearly half the list--pascal, struct, parts, eqn--were
women, well beyond women's demographic share of computer science.

Doug McIlroy 
March, 2020

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2020-09-13 15:53 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 54+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-03-20 14:03 [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs Noel Chiappa
2020-03-20 14:08 ` Richard Salz
2020-03-20 14:52   ` Larry McVoy
2020-03-20 14:58     ` Dagobert Michelsen
2020-03-20 15:05       ` Richard Salz
2020-03-20 22:09       ` Mike Markowski
2020-03-20 15:03     ` Gregg Levine
2020-03-20 15:05       ` Chet Ramey
2020-03-20 22:06     ` Dave Horsfall
2020-03-21  4:59     ` Wesley Parish
2020-03-20 21:57   ` Dave Horsfall
2020-03-22 18:05     ` Tony Finch
2020-03-20 15:07 ` Nemo
2020-03-20 19:03   ` Adam Thornton
2020-03-20 16:07 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-09-13 15:44   ` Juergen Nickelsen
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2020-03-21  1:12 Noel Chiappa
2020-03-19 20:57 Nelson H. F. Beebe
2020-03-19 21:18 ` Tomasz Rola
2020-03-20  7:14 ` arnold
2020-03-20  7:49   ` Thomas Paulsen
2020-03-20  8:18     ` arnold
2020-03-13 23:31 Doug McIlroy
2020-03-14  0:40 ` Dave Horsfall
2020-03-14 11:30 ` Harald Arnesen
2020-03-14 12:24   ` Clem Cole
2020-03-15 22:01     ` Rob Pike
2020-03-15 22:14       ` Larry McVoy
2020-03-15 23:34         ` Warner Losh
2020-03-16  2:45           ` Anthony Martin
2020-03-15 22:30       ` Clem Cole
2020-03-15 23:20       ` Dave Horsfall
2020-03-16  0:56         ` Rob Pike
2020-03-20 23:20           ` Dave Horsfall
2020-03-20 23:35             ` Toby Thain
2020-03-21  0:34             ` Rob Pike
2020-03-17 13:03 ` ca6c
2020-03-17 13:30   ` Andy Kosela
2020-03-17 14:53     ` Cág
2020-03-17 14:57       ` Larry McVoy
2020-03-17 14:59         ` Arrigo Triulzi
2020-03-17 15:40   ` Steve Nickolas
2020-03-17 22:28   ` Dave Horsfall
2020-03-18  0:17     ` Jon Steinhart
2020-03-18  3:28       ` Dave Horsfall
2020-03-18  8:40     ` arnold
2020-03-19 12:26     ` Mike Markowski
2020-03-19 21:31       ` Dave Horsfall
2020-03-20 11:48         ` paul
2020-03-20 15:40           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-03-20 16:40             ` Jon Steinhart
2020-03-20 17:23               ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-03-20 18:43               ` Rich Morin
2020-03-19 20:01   ` Tomasz Rola

The Unix Heritage Society mailing list

This inbox may be cloned and mirrored by anyone:

	git clone --mirror http://inbox.vuxu.org/tuhs

	# If you have public-inbox 1.1+ installed, you may
	# initialize and index your mirror using the following commands:
	public-inbox-init -V1 tuhs tuhs/ http://inbox.vuxu.org/tuhs \
		tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org
	public-inbox-index tuhs

Example config snippet for mirrors.
Newsgroup available over NNTP:
	nntp://inbox.vuxu.org/vuxu.archive.tuhs


AGPL code for this site: git clone https://public-inbox.org/public-inbox.git