From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5197521EB9 for ; Mon, 13 May 2024 04:34:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4389C43678; Mon, 13 May 2024 12:34:08 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pl1-x62b.google.com (mail-pl1-x62b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62b]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2D9243677 for ; Mon, 13 May 2024 12:33:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pl1-x62b.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1ed96772f92so31334205ad.0 for ; Sun, 12 May 2024 19:33:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1715567638; x=1716172438; darn=tuhs.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:message-id:date:references :in-reply-to:subject:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=q6rqDQRwzyarR1zO4QZvSeCKphLG21UmpyuGbL8AbDQ=; b=k0/f7PIzQvdW1XAfMWcNHtbnq5YTvjIC/xMnhnQiC822tBON9kDrS//pbFHUWvHJDn MBP/qEfIeah7f2Kvs7xIzc5KPuVbp57eNkjlpXuaLb5eM0QMtJMqFHC3iaCjLZrDnzHm ou02FQ2lANE4/de8vnpbHfZkH9Cw/TwnIfAFfBsvh+l2Jwj0WPASie8xivGRC0K1LiqI 8UuOpIXoxKY/AwBcrPDnnXwsYyGA+qx1UPAeuVDEywW12Piz+kJY+X8M3RYgS3zC7TPs WGxDAGUFCiSnQMRCieCzaT/0xaFOGdSE2/VMkPRREv8gVQV/561X4LkpxC5am+OLoGmM dpMg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1715567638; x=1716172438; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:message-id:date:references :in-reply-to:subject:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=q6rqDQRwzyarR1zO4QZvSeCKphLG21UmpyuGbL8AbDQ=; b=qK0wQGxRNQhRefNLL7JLrjWXXSG+FO2zL9QBycUGPQB6obZb49Tg5HlpH9YovyKm52 Kp5rSugh+qfRW1CYJp40r90zyD1aM/hHE2dxyZ4vha5lHfeeqTAEnAcjiEw82mpT2Awo Js2Cf9r0RBsBk0OGIx91EpX6i0VkzXAlGvtbPp85Np4GgTEFhHUd6lFWrHh/ZAtUIxaN o0BzD48CaGYFnZujFHhrAJ98wankuu5Fxgr8eEhOgSd8F7jWtbuxKdqjxSjWUlm+Z3LX L+HzHynfnIMbgbKsy98dEIHVvW5wfFGPu8bzEwCE66sMgEs5IpiOpAbHIccXYz/m5iGV oGCA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwwZTkJ7yILpv6RF6YX6g1s16xX7wX367ox92efoIjyurPFFiQA tyldxCzyzbYEI+K0KMWZdjYIkH+kL1qxIr9nJqTGYEl1wnoQsQuitRtClQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF9YTLwwg6Fm97WM2AlulsgCCL7nMHv2Vw/1j0gGsSKdyHKNBQZ2dyiOmzHQ8S386pcyS9ImQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:44f:b0:1e9:9c6e:9732 with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1ef43d1818bmr75341375ad.19.1715567638378; Sun, 12 May 2024 19:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([120.21.79.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d9443c01a7336-1ef0c2569d1sm68196665ad.304.2024.05.12.19.33.57 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 12 May 2024 19:33:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Alexis To: The Unix Heritage Society In-Reply-To: (Adam Thornton's message of "Sun, 12 May 2024 12:34:20 -0700") References: <20240511213532.GB8330@mit.edu> Date: Mon, 13 May 2024 12:33:55 +1000 Message-ID: <87y18ebfu4.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: FQ5BPB6BCK4KSPBKH7EKPBMLBLF7E7MU X-Message-ID-Hash: FQ5BPB6BCK4KSPBKH7EKPBMLBLF7E7MU X-MailFrom: flexibeast@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: [COFF] Re: On Bloat and the Idea of Small Specialized Tools List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 2:35=E2=80=AFPM Theodore Ts'o =20 > wrote: > > So while some of us old farts might be bemoaning the death of=20 > the > Unix > philosophy, perhaps part of the reality is that the Unix=20 > philosophy > were ideal for a simpler time, but might not be as good of a fit > today Hm .... i guess it might depend on the specific use-case(s)=20 involved? At one point i realised that a primary reason i enjoy using *n*x=20 systems is that they're fundamentally=20 _text-oriented_. (Unsurprisingly, of course, given the context in=20 which Unix was developed.) i spend a lot of my time interacting=20 and working with text, and *n*x systems provide me with many=20 useful tools for this. Quoting the old "UNIX As Literature" piece,=20 https://theody.net/elements.html: "[T]he most recurrent complaint was that [Unix] was too=20 text-oriented. People really hated the command line, with all the=20 utilities, obscure flags, and arguments they had to memorize. They=20 hated all the typing. One mislaid character and you had to start=20 over. Interestingly, this complaint came most often from users of=20 the GUI-laden Macintosh or Windows platforms. ... "[A] suspiciously high proportion of my UNIX colleagues had=20 already developed, in some prior career, a comfort and fluency=20 with text and printed words. ... "With UNIX, text =E2=80=94 on the command line, STDIN, STDOUT, STDERR =E2= =80=94 is=20 the primary interface mechanism: UNIX system utilities are a sort=20 of Lego construction set for word-smiths. Pipes and filters=20 connect one utility to the next, text flows invisibly=20 between. Working with a shell, awk/lex derivatives, or the utility=20 set is literally a word dance." Perl, with its pervasive regex-based functionality and extensive=20 Unicode support, fits neatly into this. i find regexes an=20 _incredibly_ powerful tool for working with text, whether via=20 Perl, sed, awk, or whatever. But my experience is that many people=20 treat regexes as an anathema, with Zawinski's "Now you have two=20 problems" regularly trotted out as a thought-terminating=20 clich=C3=A9. Sure, regexes can, and do, get used where they shouldn't=20 be[a]; that doesn't mean the baby should be thrown out with the=20 bathwater.=20 But if one is only working with text under sufferance, trying to=20 avoid it via substantially more graphically-oriented environments,=20 the text-based "Unix philosophy" and the tools associated with it=20 might feel (and actually be) much less appropriate and=20 useful. Fair enough. The Unix construction set will still be there=20 for those of us who find them very appropriate and tremendously=20 useful. Alexis. [a] It seems unlikely that anyone on this list hasn't already seen=20 this, but just in case: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1732348/regex-match-open-tags-except-xh= tml-self-contained-tags/1732454#1732454 i'm looking forward to that comment sending OpenAI over the=20 Mountains of Madness.