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[107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i22-20020aa787d6000000b00593a1f7c3dbsm6643992pfo.10.2023.02.28.11.57.27 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Feb 2023 11:57:27 -0800 (PST) From: Bakul Shah Message-Id: <8EF8F0A1-262F-4373-9887-1DABBC4EF98E@iitbombay.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5FE75CB9-C31A-45A8-B283-D5785776FA6C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.400.51.1.1\)) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2023 11:57:16 -0800 In-Reply-To: To: Clem Cole References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.400.51.1.1) Message-ID-Hash: H7F6DSXQPNHSSX7GPOHEPVG67JC33OWS X-Message-ID-Hash: H7F6DSXQPNHSSX7GPOHEPVG67JC33OWS X-MailFrom: bakul@iitbombay.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: segaloco , Jonathan Gray , tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --Apple-Mail=_5FE75CB9-C31A-45A8-B283-D5785776FA6C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 There was Cromix from Cromemco, released in 1979. It was supposed to be = a lot like Unix and had its own C compiler. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=3D&arnumber=3D1667547 I did use Leor Zolman's BDS C on my z80 imsai box in 1979-80. Written in = Assembly language! Sources here: http://www.cpm.z80.de/develop.htm > On Feb 28, 2023, at 11:42 AM, Clem Cole wrote: >=20 > Just so you know, the folks in Western Electric's Teletype team = retargeted the Ritchie compiler to become a Z80 cross-compiler/assembler = dev tools suite. That implementation was floating around the Bell System = in the 76/77/78 time frame. I know Karn had brought it with him and = started using it for his original KA9Q IP/TCP implementation, initially = for his CP/M box and ham radio system; (as he ran it as a cross compiler = on my 11/34 at CMU's Mellon Institute -- I trade cycles for access to = the compiler). I don't know if anyone ever tried to use the Teletype = Z80 C compiler to build a UNIX or UNIX-like port for the z80 with it. I = have since forgotten how complete it was. >=20 > A bit later, Loer Zohlman wrote BDS C,=C2=A0 = which was pretty darned good/fairly = complete C implementation for the time; and a few years back, he put it = in the Public Domain [ you can download it from his website]. = Missing/lost is/was the UNIX-like system they were working on to go = along with the compiler - which I am trying to remember if it was quite = complete/much less made it out for sale like his compiler was at the = time. However, at an early Boston USENIX, Leor had it running "good = enough" that he brought it and showed it in his room on a dual floppy = Z80 IMSAI box = with some 4K bank switching HW (I = don't remember how much memory - probably 128Kish). I was there when he = demo'ed it to Dennis and a few other hackers. Dennis's response at the = time was it reminded him of the early UNIX efforts. I just thought it = was pretty cool. >=20 > A year or so later, Onyx folks brought their Z8000 based V7 system to = USENIX, causing quite a stir > =E1=90=A7 > =E1=90=A7 > =E1=90=A7 > =E1=90=A7 >=20 > On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 1:59=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS = > wrote: >> Sounds like Idris and uNIX are the closest we get with ex-Bell = personnel being involved with both projects. >>=20 >> I haven't found anything in the surviving Bell streams that suggests = any 8-bit attempts internally, and various portability documents suggest = 16-bit and 32-bit targets abound but nothing like a 6502 or Z80 running = UNIX inside Bell, again not that it would really be that worthwhile of = an experiment at the time given their focus on minis. Anywho, if = anything ever does show up in my study I'll happily share the details. >>=20 >> - Matt G. >>=20 >> ------- Original Message ------- >> On Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 2:57 AM, Jonathan Gray = > wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> > On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 07:48:45PM +0000, segaloco via TUHS wrote: >> >=20 >> > > So in working on an unrelated 6502 project, I got to wondering = about >> > > UNIX on it and other 8-bits. Did some Googling, and while I was >> > > able to turn up some attempts at UNIX-likes on 6502 as well as = Z80, >> > > the only one I found that might have some Bell connection is = "uNIX" >> > > as documented here: https://bitsavers.org/pdf/uNIX/uNIX_Jan82.pdf >> > >=20 >> > > A forum post I read suggested those involved were some former = Bell >> > > folks from NJ. In any case, this begs the question for me: Were >> > > there ever any serious attempts at an 8-bit UNIX in the labs or >> > > Bell System at large? Certainly it would've provided quite the >> > > challenge without much return compared with 16 and 32-bit = efforts, >> > > but does anyone know if, say, an LSX/Mini-UNIX-ish attempt was = ever >> > > made at the 6502, Z80, or other 8-bits? Thanks all! >> > >=20 >> > > - Matt G. >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > If by Bell connection you mean people. Plauger left in 1975, >> > joined Yourdon Inc in 1975, started Whitesmiths Ltd in 1978[1]. >> > Whitesmiths created Idris, a clone of Unix. >> >=20 >> > "Idris can run comfortably where UNIX can't event fit: On an >> > MC68000 with no memory management hardware, for example. >> > On a bank-switched 8080 or Z80. Or on any LS-11 or PDP-11 >> > with memory management." >> > Whitesmiths advertisement in Computerworld, Mar 1983 [2]. >> >=20 >> > Yourdon Inc, announced Omnix in 1980, a Unix-like system for = Z80[3]. >> > By 1981 it "had to be withdrawn when Yourdon were let down by its >> > developers" [4]. >> >=20 >> > [1] = https://indico.cern.ch/event/318305/attachments/612388/842557/PJPlauger-IT= Seminar-Fifty_years.pdf >> > [2] https://books.google.com/books?id=3DRAe4jAHXAgwC&pg=3DPA50 >> > [3] = https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/AUUGN/AUUGN-V02.3.pdf >> > [4] https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1164679.1164681 >> >=20 >> > The last article is "UNIX on a Micro" by Cornelia Boldyreff. >> > It briefly mentions other 8-bit Unix-likes: Cromemco's Cromix, >> > Thinker Toys/Morrow's Micronix, Technical Systems Consultants' = UniFLEX. --Apple-Mail=_5FE75CB9-C31A-45A8-B283-D5785776FA6C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 There was = Cromix from Cromemco, released in 1979. It was supposed to be a lot like = Unix and had its own C compiler.


I did use Leor Zolman's BDS C on my = z80 imsai box in 1979-80. Written in Assembly language! Sources = here:



On Feb 28, = 2023, at 11:42 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

Just so you know, the = folks in Western Electric's Teletype team retargeted the Ritchie = compiler to become a Z80 cross-compiler/assembler dev tools suite. That = implementation was floating around the Bell System in the 76/77/78 = time frame.  I know Karn had brought it with him and started using = it for his original KA9Q IP/TCP implementation, initially for his CP/M = box and ham radio system; (as he ran it as a cross compiler on my = 11/34 at CMU's Mellon Institute -- I trade cycles for access to the = compiler).  I don't know if anyone ever tried to use the Teletype = Z80 C compiler to build a UNIX or UNIX-like port for the z80 with it. I = have since forgotten how complete it was.

A= bit later, Loer Zohlman wrote BDS = C, which was pretty darned good/fairly complete C = implementation for the time; and a few years back, he put it in the = Public Domain [ you can download it from his website].  = Missing/lost is/was the UNIX-like system they were working on to go = along with the compiler - which I am trying to remember if it was quite = complete/much less made it out for sale like his compiler was at the = time.  However, at an early Boston USENIX, Leor had it running = "good enough" that he brought it and showed it in his room on a dual = floppy Z80 IMSAI box with some 4K bank switching HW (I don't = remember how much memory - probably 128Kish).  I was there when he = demo'ed it to Dennis and a few other hackers.  Dennis's = response at the time was it reminded him of the early UNIX = efforts.  I just thought it was pretty cool.

A= year or so later, Onyx folks brought their Z8000 based V7 system to = USENIX, causing quite a stir
3D""<= font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1">=E1=90=A7
3D""<= font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1">=E1=90=A7
3D""<= font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1">=E1=90=A7
3D""<= font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"1">=E1=90=A7

On Tue, Feb = 28, 2023 at 1:59=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> = wrote:
Sounds like Idris and uNIX are the = closest we get with ex-Bell personnel being involved with both = projects.

I haven't found anything in the surviving Bell streams that suggests any = 8-bit attempts internally, and various portability documents suggest = 16-bit and 32-bit targets abound but nothing like a 6502 or Z80 running = UNIX inside Bell, again not that it would really be that worthwhile of = an experiment at the time given their focus on minis.  Anywho, if = anything ever does show up in my study I'll happily share the = details.

- Matt G.

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 2:57 AM, Jonathan Gray <jsg@jsg.id.au> = wrote:


> On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 07:48:45PM +0000, segaloco via TUHS = wrote:
>
> > So in working on an unrelated 6502 project, I got to wondering = about
> > UNIX on it and other 8-bits. Did some Googling, and while I = was
> > able to turn up some attempts at UNIX-likes on 6502 as well as = Z80,
> > the only one I found that might have some Bell connection is = "uNIX"
> > as documented here: https://bitsavers.org/pdf/uNIX/uNIX_Jan82.pdf
> >
> > A forum post I read suggested those involved were some former = Bell
> > folks from NJ. In any case, this begs the question for me: = Were
> > there ever any serious attempts at an 8-bit UNIX in the labs = or
> > Bell System at large? Certainly it would've provided quite = the
> > challenge without much return compared with 16 and 32-bit = efforts,
> > but does anyone know if, say, an LSX/Mini-UNIX-ish attempt was = ever
> > made at the 6502, Z80, or other 8-bits? Thanks all!
> >
> > - Matt G.
>
>
> If by Bell connection you mean people. Plauger left in 1975,
> joined Yourdon Inc in 1975, started Whitesmiths Ltd in 1978[1].
> Whitesmiths created Idris, a clone of Unix.
>
> "Idris can run comfortably where UNIX can't event fit: On an
> MC68000 with no memory management hardware, for example.
> On a bank-switched 8080 or Z80. Or on any LS-11 or PDP-11
> with memory management."
> Whitesmiths advertisement in Computerworld, Mar 1983 [2].
>
> Yourdon Inc, announced Omnix in 1980, a Unix-like system for = Z80[3].
> By 1981 it "had to be withdrawn when Yourdon were let down by = its
> developers" [4].
>
> [1] https://indico.cern.ch/event/318305/attachments/612388/8= 42557/PJPlauger-ITSeminar-Fifty_years.pdf
> [2] https://books.google.com/books?id=3DRAe4jAHXAgwC&pg=3D= PA50
> [3] https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/AUUGN/AUUGN-V= 02.3.pdf
> [4] https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1164679.1164681 >
> The last article is "UNIX on a Micro" by Cornelia Boldyreff.
> It briefly mentions other 8-bit Unix-likes: Cromemco's Cromix,
> Thinker Toys/Morrow's Micronix, Technical Systems Consultants' = UniFLEX.

= --Apple-Mail=_5FE75CB9-C31A-45A8-B283-D5785776FA6C--