From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 22485 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2023 18:05:53 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 2 Jan 2023 18:05:53 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE47642483; Tue, 3 Jan 2023 04:05:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.194]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A86B842473 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2023 04:05:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: from makerlispvps ([74.208.29.250]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus003 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MaHgk-1pWGPp0WS0-00JpWH for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2023 19:05:13 +0100 Received: from [192.168.234.128] (unknown [172.58.76.132]) by makerlispvps (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 98DF8885A1 for ; Mon, 2 Jan 2023 18:05:12 +0000 (UTC) To: tuhs@tuhs.org References: <20221230200246.GW5825@mcvoy.com> <88f83b4c-b3f9-ed87-b2fa-560fb369742a@makerlisp.com> <20221231035931.GG5825@mcvoy.com> <528f0c53-ccc2-88a1-5a7b-120362c648dd@mhorton.net> <20230102165120.GK25547@mcvoy.com> <20230102174304.GM25547@mcvoy.com> <59004a29-5119-9dd9-c248-518b8c4e7928@makerlisp.com> <20230102180020.p6gmiwhrnidfbfsc@illithid> From: Luther Johnson Message-ID: <8d5a12bf-6eb8-bdc6-932a-ee78ff09a6b6@makerlisp.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2023 11:05:10 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20230102180020.p6gmiwhrnidfbfsc@illithid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:eB9uu+dHRpUTM1bnDzP0k56m2VkuMifjOi1iuYTyYIFKl2R3fdv vjLKrMIFRTgIRYZQMIDacPeSZtj891b3clU0Z5hcMY+wQ0TVLKg8H5iZdXDE1anPhmlk3hY BZN2wQfrTiyGNVcUibFmDETAIla3E1VGXLUM/wPiED+12VrYG0vw9ROGRpJmrq7erwXRcb9 DF5e8o6H6i+C/r4wE9B9Q== UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:NB4DBeHyzFE=;3vsVzzRWOwssV3u8FUS5XSucjcS 05xohQw2UJr+mGkPHoiGV04r4nvJtndzLNGUkdo1J2FOR4akkHiCGVPzmerWubK685qlIouXA BOFlYRQesYaZiKMVFXAwFFkvTgTT8cclTxO+kjeb65+ESP8sdZG+eBH3i5HNvjSpaQXyY8vU+ p1Lu/cxDiO/ReBRqmGO4PYeGtOSP2DQSMP4UZfRpZrHaBZKY88yY/G0A1AckuyjKAOJTS5FR7 ZlqUCNQZeZc5aZ0Z99tOiVSqaJ2b9+Wuhn2mjyBiUCHWnK1P0LIWBGNd4waajxYC4t7zuOPik P2dlj4yNUuvd2YX6ZgNv2XyKB06ihuw1AU0+sX41Q9bR3bGniGm8y3NoQr9KeDkDWgiVZjkEi 2T1KOFi05OZYyfzj2bAziFkfqp2a+e20LcCBdUITfADVpXkQxs9HYve9sQNxRa8unaU6PKaYG V6BGdHYQa8XJvkeGIMuPZs+Mc4+kSH+1jbaU+KKt0TxO5tve4yImdGrYTOqdCPXtsYyOpx/cz Yv0L8CJE+awN97laUOVS5abaRdINGmipLVARqRwnRR4RE7kz8stXS61Yrb/cJQhf25ikqhYqN emkEKkG5es1/AW7oDhbCnO2dMOXp174eBubWIJpdJ1G5b+Urb79BzjHzFYzsKApUz65sqyTJf qBkmHtvgleZNqJzmAA/rKw8bFmZuoKq6amm/3hVEng== Message-ID-Hash: A6Z5XEPADQIK3AUZZPMO2K22KEACGP67 X-Message-ID-Hash: A6Z5XEPADQIK3AUZZPMO2K22KEACGP67 X-MailFrom: luther@makerlisp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: A few comments on porting the Bourne shell List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Point taken, if not entirely understood :) On 01/02/2023 11:00 AM, G. Branden Robinson wrote: > At 2023-01-02T10:48:32-0700, Luther Johnson wrote: >> Arnold Schoenberg said of his 12-tone method of music composition, "in >> constraints I find freedom". The best thing about committing to a >> simple style and a small set of tools that span the problem space, is >> the effect it has on my program composition, imho. > Schoenberg didn't have to compose for orchestras such that the Berlin > Philharmonic string section tuned half of the octave meantone with the > other half equal-tempered, whereas the Royal Concertgebouw had the > brasses play an un-notated ascending major third gliss anytime you > approached the tonic from a tritone _below_ (only). > >> On 01/02/2023 10:43 AM, Larry McVoy wrote: >>> I was supporting a commercial product in the early 2000's and there >>> were all sorts of systems then that had old shells. Yes, you could >>> make everything a 2 level thing where the first level finds the >>> correct shell, but that's just fuss. Just make things portable, >>> it's not that hard and it works everywhere. >>> >>> When you get to the commercial world, you'd be stunned to see how >>> long old machines last. If they are solving some problem, and they >>> aren't broken, nobody replaces them. I'll bet you anything there >>> are still SCO registers out there, I'll bet there are still PDP-11s >>> out there. > The logical consequence of this is to write in Autoconf's recommended > dialect of shell, which has far too many rules to remember because every > Unix vendor added exciting new bugs to their "pure" V7 shells. > > https://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/manual/autoconf-2.60/html_node/Portable-Shell.html > >>> If it ain't broke, don't fix it. > They were all broken. Badly. If your scripts worked, you got lucky at > Russian Roulette. No greater claim to robustness can be made. > > POSIX shell conformance still proves challenging for vendors, but is an > immense improvement over the status quo ante. > > I agree with Robert Elz though that standardizing the alias feature was > nuts. I want to know who brought the crack cocaine to the conference > table that day. > > Regards, > Branden