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* [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
@ 2021-07-02  2:05 Dan Cross
  2021-07-02  2:51 ` Clem Cole
  2021-07-03  2:21 ` Matt Day
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2021-07-02  2:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was written
by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using the
`curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite). I've seen
at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but that
doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is in 2.79
("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship curses.

Anyone have any info? Thanks!

        - Dan C.

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* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-02  2:05 [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? Dan Cross
@ 2021-07-02  2:51 ` Clem Cole
  2021-07-02 11:24   ` Dan Cross
  2021-07-03  2:21 ` Matt Day
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2021-07-02  2:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dan Cross; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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I first got it on V7, as I said on our 11/70 for sure but I don’t remember
if we had it on the 11/60 before that.

On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:07 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:

> What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was written
> by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using the
> `curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite). I've seen
> at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but that
> doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is in 2.79
> ("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship curses.
>
> Anyone have any info? Thanks!
>
>         - Dan C.
>
> --
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual

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* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-02  2:51 ` Clem Cole
@ 2021-07-02 11:24   ` Dan Cross
  2021-07-02 11:40     ` arnold
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2021-07-02 11:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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Thanks, Clem. I'm curious what other lore is out there: my suspicion is
that rogue never ran on vanilla v6, but it would be great to validate.

On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:51 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> I first got it on V7, as I said on our 11/70 for sure but I don’t remember
> if we had it on the 11/60 before that.
>
> On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:07 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was written
>> by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using the
>> `curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite). I've seen
>> at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but that
>> doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is in 2.79
>> ("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship curses.
>>
>> Anyone have any info? Thanks!
>>
>>         - Dan C.
>>
>> --
> Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
>

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* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-02 11:24   ` Dan Cross
@ 2021-07-02 11:40     ` arnold
  2021-07-02 12:14       ` Dan Cross
  2021-07-02 13:04       ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2021-07-02 11:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: crossd, clemc; +Cc: tuhs

Is the rogue source extant?  I remember many people spending many
hours on rogue on the 4.[12] BSD vax at Georgia Tech.

ISTR that rogue only came as a binary, there was no source.

Arnold

Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks, Clem. I'm curious what other lore is out there: my suspicion is
> that rogue never ran on vanilla v6, but it would be great to validate.
>
> On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:51 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>
> > I first got it on V7, as I said on our 11/70 for sure but I don’t remember
> > if we had it on the 11/60 before that.
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:07 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was written
> >> by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using the
> >> `curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite). I've seen
> >> at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but that
> >> doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is in 2.79
> >> ("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship curses.
> >>
> >> Anyone have any info? Thanks!
> >>
> >>         - Dan C.
> >>
> >> --
> > Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
> >

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-02 11:40     ` arnold
@ 2021-07-02 12:14       ` Dan Cross
  2021-07-02 13:07         ` Clem Cole
  2021-07-02 13:11         ` Bakul Shah
  2021-07-02 13:04       ` Clem Cole
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2021-07-02 12:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Aharon Robbins; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 7:40 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:

> Is the rogue source extant?  I remember many people spending many
> hours on rogue on the 4.[12] BSD vax at Georgia Tech.
>
> ISTR that rogue only came as a binary, there was no source.
>

It is; it looks like it was first distributed with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. The
sources there are listed as "public domain rogue", but I'm not sure about
the provenance of that code.

        - Dan C.


Arnold
>
> Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks, Clem. I'm curious what other lore is out there: my suspicion is
> > that rogue never ran on vanilla v6, but it would be great to validate.
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:51 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I first got it on V7, as I said on our 11/70 for sure but I don’t
> remember
> > > if we had it on the 11/60 before that.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:07 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was
> written
> > >> by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using the
> > >> `curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite).
> I've seen
> > >> at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but
> that
> > >> doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is
> in 2.79
> > >> ("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship
> curses.
> > >>
> > >> Anyone have any info? Thanks!
> > >>
> > >>         - Dan C.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > > Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
> > >
>

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* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-02 11:40     ` arnold
  2021-07-02 12:14       ` Dan Cross
@ 2021-07-02 13:04       ` Clem Cole
  2021-07-13 17:48         ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2021-07-02 13:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Aharon Robbins; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 7:40 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:

> Is the rogue source extant?
>
Yes -- but ...

>
> ISTR that rogue only came as a binary, there was no source.
>
That was true at first, certainly the original binary was passed around.
It might have been an early net.noise  pass around, but ISTR for Tektronix
on V7 I got the binary from someone at UCB directly -- Mark Bales, maybe,
who was a UCB doing a summer Internship and he may have brought them with
him.

The sources were later released as part of a CSRG release in the post 4.2
timeframe ??reno/tahoe I think??, but by then the binary for the Vax was
pretty popular and the sources had begun to sneak out - as I know I had
them at Masscomp and Sun had them too.  Paul Cantrell (of video teco fame)
created a color version of it and IIRC may have added some other graphics
when running on a Masscomp tube.
ᐧ

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* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-02 12:14       ` Dan Cross
@ 2021-07-02 13:07         ` Clem Cole
  2021-07-02 15:24           ` Brad Spencer
  2021-07-02 21:09           ` Dan Cross
  2021-07-02 13:11         ` Bakul Shah
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2021-07-02 13:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dan Cross; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 8:15 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:

> It is; it looks like it was first distributed with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. The
> sources there are listed as "public domain rogue", but I'm not sure about
> the provenance of that code.
>
That sounds right, you should ask Ken Arnold offline, I bet he had a better
idea.  He would have made them available to Keith.
ᐧ

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* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-02 12:14       ` Dan Cross
  2021-07-02 13:07         ` Clem Cole
@ 2021-07-02 13:11         ` Bakul Shah
  2021-07-02 13:22           ` Richard Salz
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2021-07-02 13:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dan Cross; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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Glenn wrote up a brief history where he says it was first distributed with 4.2bsd.
https://web.archive.org/web/19980625212119/http://www.wichman.org/roguehistory.html

@ Fortune Systems in 1983/83 we had 3-4 college students working for a contract company Santa Cruz Operations(?) doing testing for us. He was one of them and later we hired him full time. I didn’t interact with him much though and once I quit Fortune I lost track of him. I think initially we had only a rogue binary on 4.1 running on VAX780 but I do not recall if he brought it to Fortune. Someone later ported it to the  Fortune machine. I used to play Rogue while waiting for kernel compiles to finish. A few years ago I got it on FreeBSD and my muscle memory came back 100%!

> On Jul 2, 2021, at 5:16 AM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 7:40 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
>> Is the rogue source extant?  I remember many people spending many
>> hours on rogue on the 4.[12] BSD vax at Georgia Tech.
>> 
>> ISTR that rogue only came as a binary, there was no source.
> 
> It is; it looks like it was first distributed with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. The sources there are listed as "public domain rogue", but I'm not sure about the provenance of that code.
> 
>         - Dan C.
> 
> 
>> Arnold
>> 
>> Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > Thanks, Clem. I'm curious what other lore is out there: my suspicion is
>> > that rogue never ran on vanilla v6, but it would be great to validate.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:51 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I first got it on V7, as I said on our 11/70 for sure but I don’t remember
>> > > if we had it on the 11/60 before that.
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:07 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was written
>> > >> by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using the
>> > >> `curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite). I've seen
>> > >> at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but that
>> > >> doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is in 2.79
>> > >> ("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship curses.
>> > >>
>> > >> Anyone have any info? Thanks!
>> > >>
>> > >>         - Dan C.
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > > Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
>> > >

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* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-02 13:11         ` Bakul Shah
@ 2021-07-02 13:22           ` Richard Salz
  2021-07-03  1:10             ` Dan Cross
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Richard Salz @ 2021-07-02 13:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bakul Shah; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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Ken Arnold posted the original source to
https://sourceforge.net/projects/rogue/ back in 2000.

On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 9:12 AM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:

> Glenn wrote up a brief history where he says it was first distributed with
> 4.2bsd.
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/19980625212119/http://www.wichman.org/roguehistory.html
>
> @ Fortune Systems in 1983/83 we had 3-4 college students working for a
> contract company Santa Cruz Operations(?) doing testing for us. He was one
> of them and later we hired him full time. I didn’t interact with him much
> though and once I quit Fortune I lost track of him. I think initially we
> had only a rogue binary on 4.1 running on VAX780 but I do not recall if he
> brought it to Fortune. Someone later ported it to the  Fortune machine. I
> used to play Rogue while waiting for kernel compiles to finish. A few years
> ago I got it on FreeBSD and my muscle memory came back 100%!
>
> On Jul 2, 2021, at 5:16 AM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 
> On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 7:40 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
>
>> Is the rogue source extant?  I remember many people spending many
>> hours on rogue on the 4.[12] BSD vax at Georgia Tech.
>>
>> ISTR that rogue only came as a binary, there was no source.
>>
>
> It is; it looks like it was first distributed with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. The
> sources there are listed as "public domain rogue", but I'm not sure about
> the provenance of that code.
>
>         - Dan C.
>
>
> Arnold
>>
>> Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Thanks, Clem. I'm curious what other lore is out there: my suspicion is
>> > that rogue never ran on vanilla v6, but it would be great to validate.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:51 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I first got it on V7, as I said on our 11/70 for sure but I don’t
>> remember
>> > > if we had it on the 11/60 before that.
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:07 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was
>> written
>> > >> by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using the
>> > >> `curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite).
>> I've seen
>> > >> at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but
>> that
>> > >> doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is
>> in 2.79
>> > >> ("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship
>> curses.
>> > >>
>> > >> Anyone have any info? Thanks!
>> > >>
>> > >>         - Dan C.
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > > Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
>> > >
>>
>

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* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-02 13:07         ` Clem Cole
@ 2021-07-02 15:24           ` Brad Spencer
  2021-07-02 16:27             ` Adam Thornton
  2021-07-02 21:09           ` Dan Cross
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Brad Spencer @ 2021-07-02 15:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> writes:

> On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 8:15 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It is; it looks like it was first distributed with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. The
>> sources there are listed as "public domain rogue", but I'm not sure about
>> the provenance of that code.
>>
> That sounds right, you should ask Ken Arnold offline, I bet he had a better
> idea.  He would have made them available to Keith.
> ᐧ


I don't know what it was exactly, but in the mid 1980s a version of
rogue existed for OS-9 Level 2 on the 6809 and I ran it on a Radio Shack
Color Computer.  By the later part of that decade, I had access to a
PDP11 running 2.something BSD and played rogue there too.  The Color
Computer version was either a good clone, or someone had access to the
source code.

This -> http://www.lcurtisboyle.com/nitros9/rogue.html looks like it..
Says 1986 by Epyx



-- 
Brad Spencer - brad@anduin.eldar.org - KC8VKS - http://anduin.eldar.org


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-02 15:24           ` Brad Spencer
@ 2021-07-02 16:27             ` Adam Thornton
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Adam Thornton @ 2021-07-02 16:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

> 
> This -> http://www.lcurtisboyle.com/nitros9/rogue.html looks like it..
> Says 1986 by Epyx
> 


Between https://sourceforge.net/projects/roguelike/ and https://britzl.github.io/roguearchive/ you’ve got a lot to work with.

Adam


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-02 13:07         ` Clem Cole
  2021-07-02 15:24           ` Brad Spencer
@ 2021-07-02 21:09           ` Dan Cross
  2021-07-10  3:17             ` Mary Ann Horton
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2021-07-02 21:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 9:07 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 8:15 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It is; it looks like it was first distributed with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. The
>> sources there are listed as "public domain rogue", but I'm not sure about
>> the provenance of that code.
>>
> That sounds right, you should ask Ken Arnold offline, I bet he had a
> better idea.  He would have made them available to Keith.
>

Great idea. I reached out on linked in, but don't have an email address for
Ken. Anyone have his contact information?

I'm curious if e.g. Mary Ann has any thoughts here, since she took over
maintaining curses at some point and might have gotten some of the inside
story?

Thanks for the responses so far, all.

        - Dan C.

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* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-02 13:22           ` Richard Salz
@ 2021-07-03  1:10             ` Dan Cross
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2021-07-03  1:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Richard Salz; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society, Bakul Shah

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Ah thanks, very cool.  Btw, Ken Arnold, Michael Toy, and Glenn Wichman were
all on a panel discussing rogue and Ken mentioned that source listing. Some
folks might find it interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaB7iQhts_c

Thanks!

        - Dan C.


On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 9:22 AM Richard Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ken Arnold posted the original source to
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/rogue/ back in 2000.
>
> On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 9:12 AM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
>
>> Glenn wrote up a brief history where he says it was first distributed
>> with 4.2bsd.
>>
>> https://web.archive.org/web/19980625212119/http://www.wichman.org/roguehistory.html
>>
>> @ Fortune Systems in 1983/83 we had 3-4 college students working for a
>> contract company Santa Cruz Operations(?) doing testing for us. He was one
>> of them and later we hired him full time. I didn’t interact with him much
>> though and once I quit Fortune I lost track of him. I think initially we
>> had only a rogue binary on 4.1 running on VAX780 but I do not recall if he
>> brought it to Fortune. Someone later ported it to the  Fortune machine. I
>> used to play Rogue while waiting for kernel compiles to finish. A few years
>> ago I got it on FreeBSD and my muscle memory came back 100%!
>>
>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 5:16 AM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 7:40 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Is the rogue source extant?  I remember many people spending many
>>> hours on rogue on the 4.[12] BSD vax at Georgia Tech.
>>>
>>> ISTR that rogue only came as a binary, there was no source.
>>>
>>
>> It is; it looks like it was first distributed with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. The
>> sources there are listed as "public domain rogue", but I'm not sure about
>> the provenance of that code.
>>
>>         - Dan C.
>>
>>
>> Arnold
>>>
>>> Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Thanks, Clem. I'm curious what other lore is out there: my suspicion is
>>> > that rogue never ran on vanilla v6, but it would be great to validate.
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:51 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > I first got it on V7, as I said on our 11/70 for sure but I don’t
>>> remember
>>> > > if we had it on the 11/60 before that.
>>> > >
>>> > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:07 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >> What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was
>>> written
>>> > >> by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using
>>> the
>>> > >> `curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite).
>>> I've seen
>>> > >> at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but
>>> that
>>> > >> doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is
>>> in 2.79
>>> > >> ("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship
>>> curses.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Anyone have any info? Thanks!
>>> > >>
>>> > >>         - Dan C.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> --
>>> > > Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
>>> > >
>>>
>>

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* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-02  2:05 [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? Dan Cross
  2021-07-02  2:51 ` Clem Cole
@ 2021-07-03  2:21 ` Matt Day
  2021-07-03 14:15   ` Clem Cole
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Matt Day @ 2021-07-03  2:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dan Cross; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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Quoting from David Craddock's book, Dungeon Hacks (2015), pages 34-35:

> By the time Toy and Wichman started at UC Santa Cruz, BSD UNIX had entered
> widespread usage across UC campuses and was branching out to other schools.
> Each new version of BSD, released on cassette tape, included handy programs
> written by Joy and other hackers. One program was curses, written by Ken
> Arnold. Arnold had written curses according to the UNIX creed: a simple
> tool fashioned for a specific purpose. Wielding curses like a paintbrush,
> users could place text such as letters, numbers, and symbols at any
> location on the screen.



The moment he used curses, Toy saw its potential. In 1980, he went to
> Wichman and suggested they use curses to create a graphical adventure game
> with a twist. Unlike Colossal Cave Adventure and its derivatives, their
> game would construct brand new environments and challenges every time. An
> avid Dungeons & Dragons player, he invented a fantasy-themed setting and
> premise. Players would assume the identity of an adventurer who entered the
> Dungeons of Doom, a series of levels filled with monsters and treasure.



Wichman loved the idea and dubbed the game Rogue. "I think the name just
> came to me. Names needed to be short because you invoked a program by
> typing its name in a command line. I liked the idea of a rogue. We were
> coming from a Dungeons & Dragons background, but we were creating a
> single-player game. You weren't going down into the dungeon with a party.
> The idea was that this is a person going off on his or her own. It captured
> the theme very succinctly."



Apropos of UNIX, Toy chose to write Rogue in the C language. C produced
> fast code, while BASIC was slower and meant for smaller programs. Wichman,
> still a few steps behind Toy in programming prowess, learned C by watching
> Toy program their game. "The early alpha versions of Rogue were probably
> all my code, but Glenn [Wichman] made lots of contributions in terms of
> design," Toy recalled. "I think it's quite fair to say that the game was a
> pretty straight collaboration between Glenn [Wichman], Ken [Arnold], and me
> by the time it was done. I feel pretty good about that."



Toy and Wichman realized they wouldn't be able to stay at school during all
> hours to write their game. Fortunately, they didn't need to. As employees
> of the computer science division, they had special lab privileges. Setting
> up an ADM-3a terminal in their apartment, they could dial into the VAX
> 11/780 shunted off in a basement somewhere at UC Santa Cruz. The connection
> was established through their 300-baud modem -- a device that would take
> several minutes to transmit the text on an average-length Wikipedia page
> today -- enabling them to write the vast majority of Rogue from the comfort
> of their apartment.


Craddock's notes explain that the quotes of Michael Toy and Glenn Wichman
"come from interviews conducted via phone, Skype, and email over 2012-2014."

I think you must be right about the first machine being something running
BSD UNIX.

Matt

On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 8:07 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:

> What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was written
> by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using the
> `curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite). I've seen
> at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but that
> doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is in 2.79
> ("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship curses.
>
> Anyone have any info? Thanks!
>
>         - Dan C.
>
>

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* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-03  2:21 ` Matt Day
@ 2021-07-03 14:15   ` Clem Cole
  2021-07-03 15:08     ` Warner Losh
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2021-07-03 14:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Matt Day; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 10:22 PM Matt Day <fjarlq@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think you must be right about the first machine being something running
> BSD UNIX.
>
Be careful when you say 'BSD'-- when people say "BSD UNIX" they
*usually mean* a Unix release post-VAX  support (*a.k.a.* 3BSD).

We know for a fact that Rogue definitely ran on 16-bit PDP-11's - it's an
open question of it needed the '17th bit' (*a.k.a.* separate I/D of
the 11/45 class).  As I said, I had on the TekLab's 11/70 in those days and
I think I got it from Mark Bales, who was a UCB student in the CAD group
which I would later join as a grad student.

Plus Ken Arnold was originally part of the Ingres group, which famously had
the only ArpaNet connection on campus at the time (Ing70 - which I have
forgotten what it's one letter 'Berk-Net' id was -- Mary Ann might remember
- *i.e*. all external email was shipped across the Berknet to Ing70 for
processing).

The original BSD (*a.k.a.* what we call 1BSD on this mailing list) and
2BSD, were already in the wild particularly at other University sites,
since 1BSD had UCB Pascal in it and many schools in those days were using
Pascal as their teaching language.  But ... if you look at the tapes, there
are tools and the C-shell, ex, and other tidbits, but the *kernel* running
at UCB in those days is very much V6 and later V7 based - maybe with a few
changes like some performance tweaks for nami and moving the I/O buffers
(but those were from other places).

The system people ran in those days (particularly on PDP-11s) is not nearly
what we now think of as a 'pure-joy.'  Truth is, until 4.1BSD, that is
really were 'BSD' starts to take an identity of its own as being distinctly
different from Research and both being loved and loathed by many -- Rob's
'cat -v' paper *et al.*.

From the timing, it is also quite possible Toy and Wichman had either a
3BSD or very early 4BSD Vax or just as likely V7 with 2BSD loaded.

Just an old f*art who was there chiming in ...   :-)

Clem
ᐧ

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-03 14:15   ` Clem Cole
@ 2021-07-03 15:08     ` Warner Losh
  2021-07-03 22:25       ` Eric Allman
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2021-07-03 15:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3759 bytes --]

On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 8:16 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 10:22 PM Matt Day <fjarlq@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think you must be right about the first machine being something running
>> BSD UNIX.
>>
> Be careful when you say 'BSD'-- when people say "BSD UNIX" they
> *usually mean* a Unix release post-VAX  support (*a.k.a.* 3BSD).
>
> We know for a fact that Rogue definitely ran on 16-bit PDP-11's - it's an
> open question of it needed the '17th bit' (*a.k.a.* separate I/D of
> the 11/45 class).  As I said, I had on the TekLab's 11/70 in those days and
> I think I got it from Mark Bales, who was a UCB student in the CAD group
> which I would later join as a grad student.
>
> Plus Ken Arnold was originally part of the Ingres group, which famously
> had the only ArpaNet connection on campus at the time (Ing70 - which I have
> forgotten what it's one letter 'Berk-Net' id was -- Mary Ann might remember
> - *i.e*. all external email was shipped across the Berknet to Ing70 for
> processing).
>
> The original BSD (*a.k.a.* what we call 1BSD on this mailing list) and
> 2BSD, were already in the wild particularly at other University sites,
> since 1BSD had UCB Pascal in it and many schools in those days were using
> Pascal as their teaching language.  But ... if you look at the tapes, there
> are tools and the C-shell, ex, and other tidbits, but the *kernel* running
> at UCB in those days is very much V6 and later V7 based - maybe with a few
> changes like some performance tweaks for nami and moving the I/O buffers
> (but those were from other places).
>
> The system people ran in those days (particularly on PDP-11s) is not
> nearly what we now think of as a 'pure-joy.'  Truth is, until 4.1BSD, that
> is really were 'BSD' starts to take an identity of its own as being
> distinctly different from Research and both being loved and loathed by many
> -- Rob's 'cat -v' paper *et al.*.
>
> From the timing, it is also quite possible Toy and Wichman had either a
> 3BSD or very early 4BSD Vax or just as likely V7 with 2BSD loaded.
>

Rough timeline

V6           mid 75
1BSD      mid 77 (pascal, ex, but no vi)
2BSD      late 78 (vi, though from a 1979 copy in tuhs no curses yet, but
with termcapish things dated April 79)
V7           early 79
3BSD      late 79
2BSD      April 80 (the 2.79 in the archives, by this point curses was
added to the tape)
4BSD      mid 80 (with curses)
2.8/4.1BSD mid 81 (first unified kernel+userland pdp-11 distro)

So curses library wasn't on the 3bsd tape. It may have been on the 4bsd
tape: all I can find is libtermcap on tuhs, but kirk's archive has a
curses library data October 1980. The late 2BSD tapes (called 2.79BSD in
our archive) is the earliest artifact I can find. It appears curses wasn't
widely available until midish 1980: the 2.79BSD tape has a July 17, 1980
date on the docs (being the earliest artifact I could find) and a Jan 1981
on the sources. The earliest net.sources archive I can find starts in 1982.
The latest 2BSD tape we have in the archive from April 1979 does not have
it.

A binary of rogue is on the 2.8BSD and 4.1BSD tapes. 2.8 has 'version 3.4'
but no sources and 4.1 has vers 4.22 in a 4.0 upgrade directory, but no
sources either:

-r--r--r--  1 root  wheel   70364 May 21  1981 ./2.8/usr/bin.v7/ucb/rogue
-r-xr-xr-x  1 root  wheel   96356 Mar 13  1982 ./4.1.snap/usr/games/rogue
-r-xr-xr-x  1 root  wheel   96356 Mar 13  1982
./4.1/4.0.upgrade/usr/games/rogue

Even in 4.2 it looks like most of rogue was distributed as a binary .o
file, and needed the updated net.sources version of libcurses, distributed
with 4.2bsd.

So from a tracing the artifacts for libcurses, we get an interesting
diversion, but nothing conclusive.

Warner

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-03 15:08     ` Warner Losh
@ 2021-07-03 22:25       ` Eric Allman
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Eric Allman @ 2021-07-03 22:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warner Losh, Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1131 bytes --]


> Plus Ken Arnold was originally part of the Ingres group, which
> famously had the only ArpaNet connection on campus at the time (Ing70
> - which I have forgotten what it's one letter 'Berk-Net' id was --
> Mary Ann might remember - /i.e/. all external email was shipped across
> the Berknet to Ing70 for processing).

Actually, I don't recall Ken actually working on Ingres, although it's
not impossible — he certainly did work at Britton Lee, which was an
Ingres spin-off. But lots of people in the department had access to our
machine, almost certainly including Ken. But resources were limited and
the entire department had to compete for the two terminal lines
available at the time, which is why I wrote delivermail (later sendmail)
in the first place.

The "one letter berk-net id" of ing70 was "i". At the time of the
ARPAnet it was running a rather customized V6 that (if I recall
correctly) we got from Greg Chesson. It was connected via a VDH (Very
Distant Host) interface to the IMP at LBL — essentially a six-foot-high
9600 baud modem.  ingvax was "j", but the ARPAnet code never ran on that
hardware.

eric


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-02 21:09           ` Dan Cross
@ 2021-07-10  3:17             ` Mary Ann Horton
  2021-07-10  4:00               ` Erik E. Fair
  2021-07-10  5:04               ` Jon Forrest
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Mary Ann Horton @ 2021-07-10  3:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2005 bytes --]

As I recall, Rogue began to appear in late 1980 or early 81 at Berkeley. 
I primarily remember it on the Vax. But I thought Toy et al originally 
wrote it at UCSB and then it came to UCB. It was written for the Arnold 
curses, and served as the first major application to test it out.

I loved that game. Still do, although I rarely find time to play it 
anymore. It's widely available on web emulators these days, just search 
for "play rogue online". It will likely be the color DOS version, but it 
plays roughly the same.

The source was widely available and widely customized. I think I brought 
a copy with me to Bell Labs in 1981 where Bob Flandrena eventually 
sprouted the "brogue" variant. Some of the monsters could eat into the 
walls between rooms, and when there was a line of several chasing you 
down a hallway, one or two of them would pull around to pass... Brogue 
worked on my new curses, it was in effect part of the test suite.

Eric, of course, is the authority noting that ing70 was "i" and, as I 
recall, ingvax was "j".

     Mary Ann

On 7/2/21 2:09 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 9:07 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com 
> <mailto:clemc@ccc.com>> wrote:
>
>     On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 8:15 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com
>     <mailto:crossd@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         It is; it looks like it was first distributed with
>         4.3BSD-Tahoe. The sources there are listed as "public domain
>         rogue", but I'm not sure about the provenance of that code.
>
>     That sounds right, you should ask Ken Arnold offline, I bet he had
>     a better idea.He would have made them available to Keith.
>
>
> Great idea. I reached out on linked in, but don't have an email 
> address for Ken. Anyone have his contact information?
>
> I'm curious if e.g. Mary Ann has any thoughts here, since she took 
> over maintaining curses at some point and might have gotten some of 
> the inside story?
>
> Thanks for the responses so far, all.
>
>         - Dan C.
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-10  3:17             ` Mary Ann Horton
@ 2021-07-10  4:00               ` Erik E. Fair
  2021-07-10  5:04               ` Jon Forrest
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Erik E. Fair @ 2021-07-10  4:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mary Ann Horton; +Cc: tuhs

I collected some stuff in from those days; here's a BerkNet map
dated November 1981; mtime on my file is Jan 2 1984:


		T H E  B E R K E L E Y  N E T W O R K

			November 30, 1981

	 {ARPAnet}   Ing70				Legend
	     @	       #				- or |	1200 Baud
	     @	       #				= or #	9600 Baud
	    C70	     IngVAX {UUCPland}	  Image		@	ARPAnet
	     #	       #   /		    |
	     #	       #  /		    |
Onyx======ARPAvax====CSvax=====UCBCAD=====ESvax-----EECS40
	     #	       #		    |
	   Novax       #	 A	    |
		       #	 #	    |
	     F ======= G ======= C ------ Cory ----MathStat
		       #         #
		       #         #
		       D	 E ======== B
				 |
				 |
				SRC


		M A C H I N E   G U I D E 

Name 	Char 	Run By		Type	Vers.	Default Mach.	Comments
----	----	------		----	----	-------------	--------
A	a	C F & O		11/70	V7	C		PhotoTypesetter Machine
B	b	C F & O		11/70	V7	D		School of Business Administration Machine
C	c	C F & O		11/70	V7	A
D	d	C F & O		11/70	V7	C
E	e	C F & O		11/70	V7	C
F	f	C F & O		11/70	V7	E
G	g	C F & O		VAX	V7	E		VAX Populi
Ing70	i	ERL		11/70	V6	IngVAX
IngVAX	j	Ingres Group 	VAX	V7	Ing70		Ingres Bergman
Image	m	EE-Signal Proc.	Vax750	V7	ESvax
Kim	n	Floating Point	VAX	V7	CSvax		Kim NoVAX
ESvax	o	EECS-CE Res.	VAX	V7	CSvax		VAX Vobiscum			(UUCP passive)
UCBCAD	p	Newton		VAX	V7	ESvax						(UUCP passive)
ARPAvax	r	ARPA/CSRG	VAX	V7	CSvax		Bert				(UUCP passive)
SRC	s	Survey Res.	11/34	V6	D
MathStat t	Math/Stat Dept	11/45	V7	Cory
C70	u	ARPA/CSRG	BBN C/70	ARPAVAX		ARPAnet Server
CSvax	v	CS Research	VAX	V7	Cory		Ernie CoVAX			(UUCP active)
Cory	y	EECS Dept.	11/70	V7	CSvax		EECS Instructional Machine	(UUCP passive)
EECS40	z	EECS Dept.	11/40	V6	Ing70		EECS Administrative Machine (Soon to be replace with a Vax-11/750)

(the following machines are not connected or do not exist yet)

Virus	k	MicroBiology	11/40	V7	E		Politics Prevent Connection to the BerkNet
VLSI	l	Brodersen	VAX	V7	Image		On order, exp. June 81
HackOnyx q	CSUA Hackers	Onyx	V7	Cory		Existing, exp. March 82
STATVAX	w	Stat Dept.	COMET	V7	MathStat	On order, exp. Nov 81
Onyx	x	CSRG (Fabry)	Onyx	V7	Cory		z8000 Micro running v7 UNIX	(UUCP passive)

(Letters used: A-Z (total of 26))	(K & L may never happen)
Files 200,000 to 500,000 bytes are only transmitted between midnight and 6AM.
There is a file-length limit of 500,000 bytes, so that larger files must be split up (use the split command).
TeleNet is connected to the Port Selector (all of the Computer Center) {Network Address: 41587}

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-10  3:17             ` Mary Ann Horton
  2021-07-10  4:00               ` Erik E. Fair
@ 2021-07-10  5:04               ` Jon Forrest
  2021-07-10 21:09                 ` Mary Ann Horton
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Jon Forrest @ 2021-07-10  5:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs



On 7/9/21 8:17 PM, Mary Ann Horton wrote:
> As I recall, Rogue began to appear in late 1980 or early 81 at Berkeley. 
> I primarily remember it on the Vax. But I thought Toy et al originally 
> wrote it at UCSB and then it came to UCB. 

I was at UCSB from the time the first Unix machine arrived until
1985. I'm not aware of any Rogue activity there.

> The source was widely available and widely customized. I think I brought 
> a copy with me to Bell Labs in 1981 where Bob Flandrena eventually 
> sprouted the "brogue" variant. Some of the monsters could eat into the 
> walls between rooms, and when there was a line of several chasing you 
> down a hallway, one or two of them would pull around to pass... Brogue 
> worked on my new curses, it was in effect part of the test.

I heard there was a version that contained Ed Gould roaming around.

Jon




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-10  5:04               ` Jon Forrest
@ 2021-07-10 21:09                 ` Mary Ann Horton
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Mary Ann Horton @ 2021-07-10 21:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


On 7/9/21 10:04 PM, Jon Forrest wrote:
>
>
> On 7/9/21 8:17 PM, Mary Ann Horton wrote:
>> As I recall, Rogue began to appear in late 1980 or early 81 at 
>> Berkeley. I primarily remember it on the Vax. But I thought Toy et al 
>> originally wrote it at UCSB and then it came to UCB. 
>
> I was at UCSB from the time the first Unix machine arrived until
> 1985. I'm not aware of any Rogue activity there.
>
The brain synapses have grown dusty. I meant UC Santa Cruz.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue?
  2021-07-02 13:04       ` Clem Cole
@ 2021-07-13 17:48         ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) @ 2021-07-13 17:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

You could buy source for a version of rogue from the AT&T Software
Toolchest.  We bought a copy and ran it on CTIX and 4.2BSD, among
others.  I don't recall any portability issues, and have long forgotten
everything related to licensing, code provenance, etc.

--lyndon

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2021-07-13 17:55 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 22+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2021-07-02  2:05 [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? Dan Cross
2021-07-02  2:51 ` Clem Cole
2021-07-02 11:24   ` Dan Cross
2021-07-02 11:40     ` arnold
2021-07-02 12:14       ` Dan Cross
2021-07-02 13:07         ` Clem Cole
2021-07-02 15:24           ` Brad Spencer
2021-07-02 16:27             ` Adam Thornton
2021-07-02 21:09           ` Dan Cross
2021-07-10  3:17             ` Mary Ann Horton
2021-07-10  4:00               ` Erik E. Fair
2021-07-10  5:04               ` Jon Forrest
2021-07-10 21:09                 ` Mary Ann Horton
2021-07-02 13:11         ` Bakul Shah
2021-07-02 13:22           ` Richard Salz
2021-07-03  1:10             ` Dan Cross
2021-07-02 13:04       ` Clem Cole
2021-07-13 17:48         ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
2021-07-03  2:21 ` Matt Day
2021-07-03 14:15   ` Clem Cole
2021-07-03 15:08     ` Warner Losh
2021-07-03 22:25       ` Eric Allman

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