* [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? @ 2021-07-02 2:05 Dan Cross 2021-07-02 2:51 ` Clem Cole 2021-07-03 2:21 ` Matt Day 0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2021-07-02 2:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 491 bytes --] What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was written by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using the `curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite). I've seen at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but that doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is in 2.79 ("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship curses. Anyone have any info? Thanks! - Dan C. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 606 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-02 2:05 [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? Dan Cross @ 2021-07-02 2:51 ` Clem Cole 2021-07-02 11:24 ` Dan Cross 2021-07-03 2:21 ` Matt Day 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2021-07-02 2:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Cross; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 770 bytes --] I first got it on V7, as I said on our 11/70 for sure but I don’t remember if we had it on the 11/60 before that. On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:07 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: > What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was written > by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using the > `curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite). I've seen > at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but that > doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is in 2.79 > ("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship curses. > > Anyone have any info? Thanks! > > - Dan C. > > -- Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1259 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-02 2:51 ` Clem Cole @ 2021-07-02 11:24 ` Dan Cross 2021-07-02 11:40 ` arnold 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2021-07-02 11:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1010 bytes --] Thanks, Clem. I'm curious what other lore is out there: my suspicion is that rogue never ran on vanilla v6, but it would be great to validate. On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:51 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > I first got it on V7, as I said on our 11/70 for sure but I don’t remember > if we had it on the 11/60 before that. > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:07 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: > >> What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was written >> by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using the >> `curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite). I've seen >> at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but that >> doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is in 2.79 >> ("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship curses. >> >> Anyone have any info? Thanks! >> >> - Dan C. >> >> -- > Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1663 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-02 11:24 ` Dan Cross @ 2021-07-02 11:40 ` arnold 2021-07-02 12:14 ` Dan Cross 2021-07-02 13:04 ` Clem Cole 0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: arnold @ 2021-07-02 11:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: crossd, clemc; +Cc: tuhs Is the rogue source extant? I remember many people spending many hours on rogue on the 4.[12] BSD vax at Georgia Tech. ISTR that rogue only came as a binary, there was no source. Arnold Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks, Clem. I'm curious what other lore is out there: my suspicion is > that rogue never ran on vanilla v6, but it would be great to validate. > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:51 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > > > I first got it on V7, as I said on our 11/70 for sure but I don’t remember > > if we had it on the 11/60 before that. > > > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:07 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was written > >> by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using the > >> `curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite). I've seen > >> at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but that > >> doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is in 2.79 > >> ("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship curses. > >> > >> Anyone have any info? Thanks! > >> > >> - Dan C. > >> > >> -- > > Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-02 11:40 ` arnold @ 2021-07-02 12:14 ` Dan Cross 2021-07-02 13:07 ` Clem Cole 2021-07-02 13:11 ` Bakul Shah 2021-07-02 13:04 ` Clem Cole 1 sibling, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2021-07-02 12:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Aharon Robbins; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1635 bytes --] On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 7:40 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote: > Is the rogue source extant? I remember many people spending many > hours on rogue on the 4.[12] BSD vax at Georgia Tech. > > ISTR that rogue only came as a binary, there was no source. > It is; it looks like it was first distributed with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. The sources there are listed as "public domain rogue", but I'm not sure about the provenance of that code. - Dan C. Arnold > > Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Thanks, Clem. I'm curious what other lore is out there: my suspicion is > > that rogue never ran on vanilla v6, but it would be great to validate. > > > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:51 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > > > > > I first got it on V7, as I said on our 11/70 for sure but I don’t > remember > > > if we had it on the 11/60 before that. > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:07 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was > written > > >> by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using the > > >> `curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite). > I've seen > > >> at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but > that > > >> doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is > in 2.79 > > >> ("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship > curses. > > >> > > >> Anyone have any info? Thanks! > > >> > > >> - Dan C. > > >> > > >> -- > > > Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual > > > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2574 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-02 12:14 ` Dan Cross @ 2021-07-02 13:07 ` Clem Cole 2021-07-02 15:24 ` Brad Spencer 2021-07-02 21:09 ` Dan Cross 2021-07-02 13:11 ` Bakul Shah 1 sibling, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2021-07-02 13:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Cross; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 388 bytes --] On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 8:15 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: > It is; it looks like it was first distributed with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. The > sources there are listed as "public domain rogue", but I'm not sure about > the provenance of that code. > That sounds right, you should ask Ken Arnold offline, I bet he had a better idea. He would have made them available to Keith. ᐧ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1440 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-02 13:07 ` Clem Cole @ 2021-07-02 15:24 ` Brad Spencer 2021-07-02 16:27 ` Adam Thornton 2021-07-02 21:09 ` Dan Cross 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Brad Spencer @ 2021-07-02 15:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> writes: > On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 8:15 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: > >> It is; it looks like it was first distributed with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. The >> sources there are listed as "public domain rogue", but I'm not sure about >> the provenance of that code. >> > That sounds right, you should ask Ken Arnold offline, I bet he had a better > idea. He would have made them available to Keith. > ᐧ I don't know what it was exactly, but in the mid 1980s a version of rogue existed for OS-9 Level 2 on the 6809 and I ran it on a Radio Shack Color Computer. By the later part of that decade, I had access to a PDP11 running 2.something BSD and played rogue there too. The Color Computer version was either a good clone, or someone had access to the source code. This -> http://www.lcurtisboyle.com/nitros9/rogue.html looks like it.. Says 1986 by Epyx -- Brad Spencer - brad@anduin.eldar.org - KC8VKS - http://anduin.eldar.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-02 15:24 ` Brad Spencer @ 2021-07-02 16:27 ` Adam Thornton 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Adam Thornton @ 2021-07-02 16:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society > > This -> http://www.lcurtisboyle.com/nitros9/rogue.html looks like it.. > Says 1986 by Epyx > Between https://sourceforge.net/projects/roguelike/ and https://britzl.github.io/roguearchive/ you’ve got a lot to work with. Adam ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-02 13:07 ` Clem Cole 2021-07-02 15:24 ` Brad Spencer @ 2021-07-02 21:09 ` Dan Cross 2021-07-10 3:17 ` Mary Ann Horton 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2021-07-02 21:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 783 bytes --] On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 9:07 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 8:15 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: > >> It is; it looks like it was first distributed with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. The >> sources there are listed as "public domain rogue", but I'm not sure about >> the provenance of that code. >> > That sounds right, you should ask Ken Arnold offline, I bet he had a > better idea. He would have made them available to Keith. > Great idea. I reached out on linked in, but don't have an email address for Ken. Anyone have his contact information? I'm curious if e.g. Mary Ann has any thoughts here, since she took over maintaining curses at some point and might have gotten some of the inside story? Thanks for the responses so far, all. - Dan C. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1812 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-02 21:09 ` Dan Cross @ 2021-07-10 3:17 ` Mary Ann Horton 2021-07-10 4:00 ` Erik E. Fair 2021-07-10 5:04 ` Jon Forrest 0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Mary Ann Horton @ 2021-07-10 3:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2005 bytes --] As I recall, Rogue began to appear in late 1980 or early 81 at Berkeley. I primarily remember it on the Vax. But I thought Toy et al originally wrote it at UCSB and then it came to UCB. It was written for the Arnold curses, and served as the first major application to test it out. I loved that game. Still do, although I rarely find time to play it anymore. It's widely available on web emulators these days, just search for "play rogue online". It will likely be the color DOS version, but it plays roughly the same. The source was widely available and widely customized. I think I brought a copy with me to Bell Labs in 1981 where Bob Flandrena eventually sprouted the "brogue" variant. Some of the monsters could eat into the walls between rooms, and when there was a line of several chasing you down a hallway, one or two of them would pull around to pass... Brogue worked on my new curses, it was in effect part of the test suite. Eric, of course, is the authority noting that ing70 was "i" and, as I recall, ingvax was "j". Mary Ann On 7/2/21 2:09 PM, Dan Cross wrote: > On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 9:07 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com > <mailto:clemc@ccc.com>> wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 8:15 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com > <mailto:crossd@gmail.com>> wrote: > > It is; it looks like it was first distributed with > 4.3BSD-Tahoe. The sources there are listed as "public domain > rogue", but I'm not sure about the provenance of that code. > > That sounds right, you should ask Ken Arnold offline, I bet he had > a better idea.He would have made them available to Keith. > > > Great idea. I reached out on linked in, but don't have an email > address for Ken. Anyone have his contact information? > > I'm curious if e.g. Mary Ann has any thoughts here, since she took > over maintaining curses at some point and might have gotten some of > the inside story? > > Thanks for the responses so far, all. > > - Dan C. > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4338 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-10 3:17 ` Mary Ann Horton @ 2021-07-10 4:00 ` Erik E. Fair 2021-07-10 5:04 ` Jon Forrest 1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Erik E. Fair @ 2021-07-10 4:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mary Ann Horton; +Cc: tuhs I collected some stuff in from those days; here's a BerkNet map dated November 1981; mtime on my file is Jan 2 1984: T H E B E R K E L E Y N E T W O R K November 30, 1981 {ARPAnet} Ing70 Legend @ # - or | 1200 Baud @ # = or # 9600 Baud C70 IngVAX {UUCPland} Image @ ARPAnet # # / | # # / | Onyx======ARPAvax====CSvax=====UCBCAD=====ESvax-----EECS40 # # | Novax # A | # # | F ======= G ======= C ------ Cory ----MathStat # # # # D E ======== B | | SRC M A C H I N E G U I D E Name Char Run By Type Vers. Default Mach. Comments ---- ---- ------ ---- ---- ------------- -------- A a C F & O 11/70 V7 C PhotoTypesetter Machine B b C F & O 11/70 V7 D School of Business Administration Machine C c C F & O 11/70 V7 A D d C F & O 11/70 V7 C E e C F & O 11/70 V7 C F f C F & O 11/70 V7 E G g C F & O VAX V7 E VAX Populi Ing70 i ERL 11/70 V6 IngVAX IngVAX j Ingres Group VAX V7 Ing70 Ingres Bergman Image m EE-Signal Proc. Vax750 V7 ESvax Kim n Floating Point VAX V7 CSvax Kim NoVAX ESvax o EECS-CE Res. VAX V7 CSvax VAX Vobiscum (UUCP passive) UCBCAD p Newton VAX V7 ESvax (UUCP passive) ARPAvax r ARPA/CSRG VAX V7 CSvax Bert (UUCP passive) SRC s Survey Res. 11/34 V6 D MathStat t Math/Stat Dept 11/45 V7 Cory C70 u ARPA/CSRG BBN C/70 ARPAVAX ARPAnet Server CSvax v CS Research VAX V7 Cory Ernie CoVAX (UUCP active) Cory y EECS Dept. 11/70 V7 CSvax EECS Instructional Machine (UUCP passive) EECS40 z EECS Dept. 11/40 V6 Ing70 EECS Administrative Machine (Soon to be replace with a Vax-11/750) (the following machines are not connected or do not exist yet) Virus k MicroBiology 11/40 V7 E Politics Prevent Connection to the BerkNet VLSI l Brodersen VAX V7 Image On order, exp. June 81 HackOnyx q CSUA Hackers Onyx V7 Cory Existing, exp. March 82 STATVAX w Stat Dept. COMET V7 MathStat On order, exp. Nov 81 Onyx x CSRG (Fabry) Onyx V7 Cory z8000 Micro running v7 UNIX (UUCP passive) (Letters used: A-Z (total of 26)) (K & L may never happen) Files 200,000 to 500,000 bytes are only transmitted between midnight and 6AM. There is a file-length limit of 500,000 bytes, so that larger files must be split up (use the split command). TeleNet is connected to the Port Selector (all of the Computer Center) {Network Address: 41587} ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-10 3:17 ` Mary Ann Horton 2021-07-10 4:00 ` Erik E. Fair @ 2021-07-10 5:04 ` Jon Forrest 2021-07-10 21:09 ` Mary Ann Horton 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Jon Forrest @ 2021-07-10 5:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On 7/9/21 8:17 PM, Mary Ann Horton wrote: > As I recall, Rogue began to appear in late 1980 or early 81 at Berkeley. > I primarily remember it on the Vax. But I thought Toy et al originally > wrote it at UCSB and then it came to UCB. I was at UCSB from the time the first Unix machine arrived until 1985. I'm not aware of any Rogue activity there. > The source was widely available and widely customized. I think I brought > a copy with me to Bell Labs in 1981 where Bob Flandrena eventually > sprouted the "brogue" variant. Some of the monsters could eat into the > walls between rooms, and when there was a line of several chasing you > down a hallway, one or two of them would pull around to pass... Brogue > worked on my new curses, it was in effect part of the test. I heard there was a version that contained Ed Gould roaming around. Jon ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-10 5:04 ` Jon Forrest @ 2021-07-10 21:09 ` Mary Ann Horton 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Mary Ann Horton @ 2021-07-10 21:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On 7/9/21 10:04 PM, Jon Forrest wrote: > > > On 7/9/21 8:17 PM, Mary Ann Horton wrote: >> As I recall, Rogue began to appear in late 1980 or early 81 at >> Berkeley. I primarily remember it on the Vax. But I thought Toy et al >> originally wrote it at UCSB and then it came to UCB. > > I was at UCSB from the time the first Unix machine arrived until > 1985. I'm not aware of any Rogue activity there. > The brain synapses have grown dusty. I meant UC Santa Cruz. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-02 12:14 ` Dan Cross 2021-07-02 13:07 ` Clem Cole @ 2021-07-02 13:11 ` Bakul Shah 2021-07-02 13:22 ` Richard Salz 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Bakul Shah @ 2021-07-02 13:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Cross; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2487 bytes --] Glenn wrote up a brief history where he says it was first distributed with 4.2bsd. https://web.archive.org/web/19980625212119/http://www.wichman.org/roguehistory.html @ Fortune Systems in 1983/83 we had 3-4 college students working for a contract company Santa Cruz Operations(?) doing testing for us. He was one of them and later we hired him full time. I didn’t interact with him much though and once I quit Fortune I lost track of him. I think initially we had only a rogue binary on 4.1 running on VAX780 but I do not recall if he brought it to Fortune. Someone later ported it to the Fortune machine. I used to play Rogue while waiting for kernel compiles to finish. A few years ago I got it on FreeBSD and my muscle memory came back 100%! > On Jul 2, 2021, at 5:16 AM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 7:40 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote: >> Is the rogue source extant? I remember many people spending many >> hours on rogue on the 4.[12] BSD vax at Georgia Tech. >> >> ISTR that rogue only came as a binary, there was no source. > > It is; it looks like it was first distributed with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. The sources there are listed as "public domain rogue", but I'm not sure about the provenance of that code. > > - Dan C. > > >> Arnold >> >> Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Thanks, Clem. I'm curious what other lore is out there: my suspicion is >> > that rogue never ran on vanilla v6, but it would be great to validate. >> > >> > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:51 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: >> > >> > > I first got it on V7, as I said on our 11/70 for sure but I don’t remember >> > > if we had it on the 11/60 before that. >> > > >> > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:07 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > >> > >> What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was written >> > >> by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using the >> > >> `curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite). I've seen >> > >> at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but that >> > >> doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is in 2.79 >> > >> ("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship curses. >> > >> >> > >> Anyone have any info? Thanks! >> > >> >> > >> - Dan C. >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > > Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual >> > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3919 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-02 13:11 ` Bakul Shah @ 2021-07-02 13:22 ` Richard Salz 2021-07-03 1:10 ` Dan Cross 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Salz @ 2021-07-02 13:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Bakul Shah; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2734 bytes --] Ken Arnold posted the original source to https://sourceforge.net/projects/rogue/ back in 2000. On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 9:12 AM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote: > Glenn wrote up a brief history where he says it was first distributed with > 4.2bsd. > > https://web.archive.org/web/19980625212119/http://www.wichman.org/roguehistory.html > > @ Fortune Systems in 1983/83 we had 3-4 college students working for a > contract company Santa Cruz Operations(?) doing testing for us. He was one > of them and later we hired him full time. I didn’t interact with him much > though and once I quit Fortune I lost track of him. I think initially we > had only a rogue binary on 4.1 running on VAX780 but I do not recall if he > brought it to Fortune. Someone later ported it to the Fortune machine. I > used to play Rogue while waiting for kernel compiles to finish. A few years > ago I got it on FreeBSD and my muscle memory came back 100%! > > On Jul 2, 2021, at 5:16 AM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 7:40 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote: > >> Is the rogue source extant? I remember many people spending many >> hours on rogue on the 4.[12] BSD vax at Georgia Tech. >> >> ISTR that rogue only came as a binary, there was no source. >> > > It is; it looks like it was first distributed with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. The > sources there are listed as "public domain rogue", but I'm not sure about > the provenance of that code. > > - Dan C. > > > Arnold >> >> Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Thanks, Clem. I'm curious what other lore is out there: my suspicion is >> > that rogue never ran on vanilla v6, but it would be great to validate. >> > >> > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:51 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: >> > >> > > I first got it on V7, as I said on our 11/70 for sure but I don’t >> remember >> > > if we had it on the 11/60 before that. >> > > >> > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:07 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > >> > >> What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was >> written >> > >> by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using the >> > >> `curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite). >> I've seen >> > >> at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but >> that >> > >> doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is >> in 2.79 >> > >> ("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship >> curses. >> > >> >> > >> Anyone have any info? Thanks! >> > >> >> > >> - Dan C. >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > > Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual >> > > >> > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4340 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-02 13:22 ` Richard Salz @ 2021-07-03 1:10 ` Dan Cross 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2021-07-03 1:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Salz; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society, Bakul Shah [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3158 bytes --] Ah thanks, very cool. Btw, Ken Arnold, Michael Toy, and Glenn Wichman were all on a panel discussing rogue and Ken mentioned that source listing. Some folks might find it interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaB7iQhts_c Thanks! - Dan C. On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 9:22 AM Richard Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote: > Ken Arnold posted the original source to > https://sourceforge.net/projects/rogue/ back in 2000. > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 9:12 AM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote: > >> Glenn wrote up a brief history where he says it was first distributed >> with 4.2bsd. >> >> https://web.archive.org/web/19980625212119/http://www.wichman.org/roguehistory.html >> >> @ Fortune Systems in 1983/83 we had 3-4 college students working for a >> contract company Santa Cruz Operations(?) doing testing for us. He was one >> of them and later we hired him full time. I didn’t interact with him much >> though and once I quit Fortune I lost track of him. I think initially we >> had only a rogue binary on 4.1 running on VAX780 but I do not recall if he >> brought it to Fortune. Someone later ported it to the Fortune machine. I >> used to play Rogue while waiting for kernel compiles to finish. A few years >> ago I got it on FreeBSD and my muscle memory came back 100%! >> >> On Jul 2, 2021, at 5:16 AM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 7:40 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote: >> >>> Is the rogue source extant? I remember many people spending many >>> hours on rogue on the 4.[12] BSD vax at Georgia Tech. >>> >>> ISTR that rogue only came as a binary, there was no source. >>> >> >> It is; it looks like it was first distributed with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. The >> sources there are listed as "public domain rogue", but I'm not sure about >> the provenance of that code. >> >> - Dan C. >> >> >> Arnold >>> >>> Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> > Thanks, Clem. I'm curious what other lore is out there: my suspicion is >>> > that rogue never ran on vanilla v6, but it would be great to validate. >>> > >>> > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:51 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > > I first got it on V7, as I said on our 11/70 for sure but I don’t >>> remember >>> > > if we had it on the 11/60 before that. >>> > > >>> > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:07 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > > >>> > >> What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was >>> written >>> > >> by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using >>> the >>> > >> `curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite). >>> I've seen >>> > >> at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but >>> that >>> > >> doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is >>> in 2.79 >>> > >> ("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship >>> curses. >>> > >> >>> > >> Anyone have any info? Thanks! >>> > >> >>> > >> - Dan C. >>> > >> >>> > >> -- >>> > > Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual >>> > > >>> >> [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5109 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-02 11:40 ` arnold 2021-07-02 12:14 ` Dan Cross @ 2021-07-02 13:04 ` Clem Cole 2021-07-13 17:48 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2021-07-02 13:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Aharon Robbins; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 902 bytes --] On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 7:40 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote: > Is the rogue source extant? > Yes -- but ... > > ISTR that rogue only came as a binary, there was no source. > That was true at first, certainly the original binary was passed around. It might have been an early net.noise pass around, but ISTR for Tektronix on V7 I got the binary from someone at UCB directly -- Mark Bales, maybe, who was a UCB doing a summer Internship and he may have brought them with him. The sources were later released as part of a CSRG release in the post 4.2 timeframe ??reno/tahoe I think??, but by then the binary for the Vax was pretty popular and the sources had begun to sneak out - as I know I had them at Masscomp and Sun had them too. Paul Cantrell (of video teco fame) created a color version of it and IIRC may have added some other graphics when running on a Masscomp tube. ᐧ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2598 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-02 13:04 ` Clem Cole @ 2021-07-13 17:48 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) @ 2021-07-13 17:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society You could buy source for a version of rogue from the AT&T Software Toolchest. We bought a copy and ran it on CTIX and 4.2BSD, among others. I don't recall any portability issues, and have long forgotten everything related to licensing, code provenance, etc. --lyndon ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-02 2:05 [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? Dan Cross 2021-07-02 2:51 ` Clem Cole @ 2021-07-03 2:21 ` Matt Day 2021-07-03 14:15 ` Clem Cole 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Matt Day @ 2021-07-03 2:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Cross; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3680 bytes --] Quoting from David Craddock's book, Dungeon Hacks (2015), pages 34-35: > By the time Toy and Wichman started at UC Santa Cruz, BSD UNIX had entered > widespread usage across UC campuses and was branching out to other schools. > Each new version of BSD, released on cassette tape, included handy programs > written by Joy and other hackers. One program was curses, written by Ken > Arnold. Arnold had written curses according to the UNIX creed: a simple > tool fashioned for a specific purpose. Wielding curses like a paintbrush, > users could place text such as letters, numbers, and symbols at any > location on the screen. The moment he used curses, Toy saw its potential. In 1980, he went to > Wichman and suggested they use curses to create a graphical adventure game > with a twist. Unlike Colossal Cave Adventure and its derivatives, their > game would construct brand new environments and challenges every time. An > avid Dungeons & Dragons player, he invented a fantasy-themed setting and > premise. Players would assume the identity of an adventurer who entered the > Dungeons of Doom, a series of levels filled with monsters and treasure. Wichman loved the idea and dubbed the game Rogue. "I think the name just > came to me. Names needed to be short because you invoked a program by > typing its name in a command line. I liked the idea of a rogue. We were > coming from a Dungeons & Dragons background, but we were creating a > single-player game. You weren't going down into the dungeon with a party. > The idea was that this is a person going off on his or her own. It captured > the theme very succinctly." Apropos of UNIX, Toy chose to write Rogue in the C language. C produced > fast code, while BASIC was slower and meant for smaller programs. Wichman, > still a few steps behind Toy in programming prowess, learned C by watching > Toy program their game. "The early alpha versions of Rogue were probably > all my code, but Glenn [Wichman] made lots of contributions in terms of > design," Toy recalled. "I think it's quite fair to say that the game was a > pretty straight collaboration between Glenn [Wichman], Ken [Arnold], and me > by the time it was done. I feel pretty good about that." Toy and Wichman realized they wouldn't be able to stay at school during all > hours to write their game. Fortunately, they didn't need to. As employees > of the computer science division, they had special lab privileges. Setting > up an ADM-3a terminal in their apartment, they could dial into the VAX > 11/780 shunted off in a basement somewhere at UC Santa Cruz. The connection > was established through their 300-baud modem -- a device that would take > several minutes to transmit the text on an average-length Wikipedia page > today -- enabling them to write the vast majority of Rogue from the comfort > of their apartment. Craddock's notes explain that the quotes of Michael Toy and Glenn Wichman "come from interviews conducted via phone, Skype, and email over 2012-2014." I think you must be right about the first machine being something running BSD UNIX. Matt On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 8:07 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: > What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was written > by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using the > `curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite). I've seen > at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but that > doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is in 2.79 > ("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship curses. > > Anyone have any info? Thanks! > > - Dan C. > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5335 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-03 2:21 ` Matt Day @ 2021-07-03 14:15 ` Clem Cole 2021-07-03 15:08 ` Warner Losh 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2021-07-03 14:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Matt Day; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2054 bytes --] On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 10:22 PM Matt Day <fjarlq@gmail.com> wrote: > I think you must be right about the first machine being something running > BSD UNIX. > Be careful when you say 'BSD'-- when people say "BSD UNIX" they *usually mean* a Unix release post-VAX support (*a.k.a.* 3BSD). We know for a fact that Rogue definitely ran on 16-bit PDP-11's - it's an open question of it needed the '17th bit' (*a.k.a.* separate I/D of the 11/45 class). As I said, I had on the TekLab's 11/70 in those days and I think I got it from Mark Bales, who was a UCB student in the CAD group which I would later join as a grad student. Plus Ken Arnold was originally part of the Ingres group, which famously had the only ArpaNet connection on campus at the time (Ing70 - which I have forgotten what it's one letter 'Berk-Net' id was -- Mary Ann might remember - *i.e*. all external email was shipped across the Berknet to Ing70 for processing). The original BSD (*a.k.a.* what we call 1BSD on this mailing list) and 2BSD, were already in the wild particularly at other University sites, since 1BSD had UCB Pascal in it and many schools in those days were using Pascal as their teaching language. But ... if you look at the tapes, there are tools and the C-shell, ex, and other tidbits, but the *kernel* running at UCB in those days is very much V6 and later V7 based - maybe with a few changes like some performance tweaks for nami and moving the I/O buffers (but those were from other places). The system people ran in those days (particularly on PDP-11s) is not nearly what we now think of as a 'pure-joy.' Truth is, until 4.1BSD, that is really were 'BSD' starts to take an identity of its own as being distinctly different from Research and both being loved and loathed by many -- Rob's 'cat -v' paper *et al.*. From the timing, it is also quite possible Toy and Wichman had either a 3BSD or very early 4BSD Vax or just as likely V7 with 2BSD loaded. Just an old f*art who was there chiming in ... :-) Clem ᐧ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4999 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-03 14:15 ` Clem Cole @ 2021-07-03 15:08 ` Warner Losh 2021-07-03 22:25 ` Eric Allman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Warner Losh @ 2021-07-03 15:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3759 bytes --] On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 8:16 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 10:22 PM Matt Day <fjarlq@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I think you must be right about the first machine being something running >> BSD UNIX. >> > Be careful when you say 'BSD'-- when people say "BSD UNIX" they > *usually mean* a Unix release post-VAX support (*a.k.a.* 3BSD). > > We know for a fact that Rogue definitely ran on 16-bit PDP-11's - it's an > open question of it needed the '17th bit' (*a.k.a.* separate I/D of > the 11/45 class). As I said, I had on the TekLab's 11/70 in those days and > I think I got it from Mark Bales, who was a UCB student in the CAD group > which I would later join as a grad student. > > Plus Ken Arnold was originally part of the Ingres group, which famously > had the only ArpaNet connection on campus at the time (Ing70 - which I have > forgotten what it's one letter 'Berk-Net' id was -- Mary Ann might remember > - *i.e*. all external email was shipped across the Berknet to Ing70 for > processing). > > The original BSD (*a.k.a.* what we call 1BSD on this mailing list) and > 2BSD, were already in the wild particularly at other University sites, > since 1BSD had UCB Pascal in it and many schools in those days were using > Pascal as their teaching language. But ... if you look at the tapes, there > are tools and the C-shell, ex, and other tidbits, but the *kernel* running > at UCB in those days is very much V6 and later V7 based - maybe with a few > changes like some performance tweaks for nami and moving the I/O buffers > (but those were from other places). > > The system people ran in those days (particularly on PDP-11s) is not > nearly what we now think of as a 'pure-joy.' Truth is, until 4.1BSD, that > is really were 'BSD' starts to take an identity of its own as being > distinctly different from Research and both being loved and loathed by many > -- Rob's 'cat -v' paper *et al.*. > > From the timing, it is also quite possible Toy and Wichman had either a > 3BSD or very early 4BSD Vax or just as likely V7 with 2BSD loaded. > Rough timeline V6 mid 75 1BSD mid 77 (pascal, ex, but no vi) 2BSD late 78 (vi, though from a 1979 copy in tuhs no curses yet, but with termcapish things dated April 79) V7 early 79 3BSD late 79 2BSD April 80 (the 2.79 in the archives, by this point curses was added to the tape) 4BSD mid 80 (with curses) 2.8/4.1BSD mid 81 (first unified kernel+userland pdp-11 distro) So curses library wasn't on the 3bsd tape. It may have been on the 4bsd tape: all I can find is libtermcap on tuhs, but kirk's archive has a curses library data October 1980. The late 2BSD tapes (called 2.79BSD in our archive) is the earliest artifact I can find. It appears curses wasn't widely available until midish 1980: the 2.79BSD tape has a July 17, 1980 date on the docs (being the earliest artifact I could find) and a Jan 1981 on the sources. The earliest net.sources archive I can find starts in 1982. The latest 2BSD tape we have in the archive from April 1979 does not have it. A binary of rogue is on the 2.8BSD and 4.1BSD tapes. 2.8 has 'version 3.4' but no sources and 4.1 has vers 4.22 in a 4.0 upgrade directory, but no sources either: -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 70364 May 21 1981 ./2.8/usr/bin.v7/ucb/rogue -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 96356 Mar 13 1982 ./4.1.snap/usr/games/rogue -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 96356 Mar 13 1982 ./4.1/4.0.upgrade/usr/games/rogue Even in 4.2 it looks like most of rogue was distributed as a binary .o file, and needed the updated net.sources version of libcurses, distributed with 4.2bsd. So from a tracing the artifacts for libcurses, we get an interesting diversion, but nothing conclusive. Warner [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6304 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? 2021-07-03 15:08 ` Warner Losh @ 2021-07-03 22:25 ` Eric Allman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Eric Allman @ 2021-07-03 22:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Warner Losh, Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1131 bytes --] > Plus Ken Arnold was originally part of the Ingres group, which > famously had the only ArpaNet connection on campus at the time (Ing70 > - which I have forgotten what it's one letter 'Berk-Net' id was -- > Mary Ann might remember - /i.e/. all external email was shipped across > the Berknet to Ing70 for processing). Actually, I don't recall Ken actually working on Ingres, although it's not impossible — he certainly did work at Britton Lee, which was an Ingres spin-off. But lots of people in the department had access to our machine, almost certainly including Ken. But resources were limited and the entire department had to compete for the two terminal lines available at the time, which is why I wrote delivermail (later sendmail) in the first place. The "one letter berk-net id" of ing70 was "i". At the time of the ARPAnet it was running a rather customized V6 that (if I recall correctly) we got from Greg Chesson. It was connected via a VDH (Very Distant Host) interface to the IMP at LBL — essentially a six-foot-high 9600 baud modem. ingvax was "j", but the ARPAnet code never ran on that hardware. eric [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1742 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2021-07-13 17:55 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 22+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2021-07-02 2:05 [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? Dan Cross 2021-07-02 2:51 ` Clem Cole 2021-07-02 11:24 ` Dan Cross 2021-07-02 11:40 ` arnold 2021-07-02 12:14 ` Dan Cross 2021-07-02 13:07 ` Clem Cole 2021-07-02 15:24 ` Brad Spencer 2021-07-02 16:27 ` Adam Thornton 2021-07-02 21:09 ` Dan Cross 2021-07-10 3:17 ` Mary Ann Horton 2021-07-10 4:00 ` Erik E. Fair 2021-07-10 5:04 ` Jon Forrest 2021-07-10 21:09 ` Mary Ann Horton 2021-07-02 13:11 ` Bakul Shah 2021-07-02 13:22 ` Richard Salz 2021-07-03 1:10 ` Dan Cross 2021-07-02 13:04 ` Clem Cole 2021-07-13 17:48 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) 2021-07-03 2:21 ` Matt Day 2021-07-03 14:15 ` Clem Cole 2021-07-03 15:08 ` Warner Losh 2021-07-03 22:25 ` Eric Allman
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