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Fri, 9 Apr 2021 13:20:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Lawrence Stewart Message-Id: <974CFAC9-6951-4495-B01B-3A6401183815@serissa.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DA6DBFF3-9B8E-43EF-A4AF-712C4DA56441" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 13:20:53 -0400 In-Reply-To: To: Dan Cross , Paul Ruizendaal , TUHS main list References: <0BD38829-5E79-4034-BCEF-0555434E52A4@planet.nl> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Subject: Re: [TUHS] SUN (Stanford University Network) was PC Unix X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --Apple-Mail=_DA6DBFF3-9B8E-43EF-A4AF-712C4DA56441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 When Digital Systems Research Lab started in 1984 after the implosion of = PARC CSL, the first machine we built was a 68000 (68010?) version of the = Firefly multiprocessor. We were able to score some MicroVAX II chips = soon enough that we redesigned using those, which was, ahem, more = politically astute at Digital. Only a few 68K versions were built. The Firefly supported a Unix/Ultrix = system call interface but otherwise used unrelated software. (Funny story about close(2). The initial version raised a Modula-2 = signal when you tried to close an already closed file, which was very = slow. The OS folks, unused to Unix, had no idea that was something you = do all the time.) Regarding the SUN-1 design, I had heard a rumor that it was designed = using TTL =E2=80=9Ctypical=E2=80=9D propagation delays rather than worst = case, and as a result was fairly flakey. This caused me to not join sun = early since Eric Schmidt had the office next to me. One of my = many life mistakes. -Larry > On 2021, Apr 9, at 1:01 PM, Dan Cross wrote: >=20 > On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 11:35 AM Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS = > wrote: > > On 09/04/2021 11:12, emanuel stiebler wrote: > You're comparing a = z80 SBC running CP/M? Or are you thinking of 68000 SBCs?=20 >=20 > Z80 CP/M machines were still competitive in 1981-1983 (Osborne, = Kaypro)=20 >=20 > > I've never seen a 68k SBC. Have I missed out something along the = way? Is there a community for 68k SBC's? Kind regards, Andrew >=20 > There is an active community around DIY 68k SBCs these days. Some = representative examples: >=20 > https://www.eejournal.com/article/wallowing-in-68k-nostalgia/ = > https://www.ist-schlau.de > https://www.bigmessowires.com/category/68katy/ = > https://github.com/74hc595/68k-nano = > http://mc68k.blogspot.com/2012_10_01_archive.html = >=20 > There are even a couple of fairly advanced 68030 design floating = around: >=20 > = https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=3Dboards:sbc:gryphon_68030:= start = > = https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=3Dboards:ecb:kiss-68030:sta= rt = >=20 > (I have a soft spot for 68k.) >=20 > - Dan C. >=20 > Well, Rob Pike designed one: http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/blit/ = >=20 > I guess the original hacker scene for the 68K was around Hal = Hardenberg=E2=80=99s newsletter: = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTACK_Grounded = >=20 > The ready-made 68K SBC=E2=80=99s only arrived 1984-1985: >=20 > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_QL = (I think Linus Torvalds = owned one) > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_ST = > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_128K = > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_1000 = >=20 > All these machines are rather similar at the hardware level - 68K = processor, RAM shared between CPU and display. Only the Amiga had a = (simple) hardware GPU. >=20 > What set the SUN-1 apart was its MMU, which none of the above have. >=20 > What influenced the timing was probably that Motorola made the 68K = more affordable by the mid-80=E2=80=99s. >=20 > Paul >=20 --Apple-Mail=_DA6DBFF3-9B8E-43EF-A4AF-712C4DA56441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 When = Digital Systems Research Lab started in 1984 after the implosion of PARC = CSL, the first machine we built was a 68000 (68010?) version of the = Firefly multiprocessor.  We were able to score some MicroVAX II = chips soon enough that we redesigned using those, which was, ahem, more = politically astute at Digital.

Only a few 68K versions were built.  The Firefly = supported a Unix/Ultrix system call interface but otherwise used = unrelated software.

(Funny story about close(2).  The initial version raised = a Modula-2 signal when you tried to close an already closed file, which = was very slow.  The OS folks, unused to Unix, had no idea that was = something you do all the time.)

Regarding the SUN-1 design, I had heard = a rumor that it was designed using TTL =E2=80=9Ctypical=E2=80=9D = propagation delays rather than worst case, and as a result was fairly = flakey.  This caused me to not join sun <very> early since = Eric Schmidt had the office next to me.  One of my many life = mistakes.

-Larry

On 2021, Apr 9, at 1:01 PM, Dan = Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 = at 11:35 AM Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:
> On 09/04/2021 11:12, emanuel = stiebler wrote: > You're comparing a z80 SBC running CP/M? Or are you = thinking of 68000 SBCs?

Z80 CP/M machines were still competitive in 1981-1983 (Osborne, = Kaypro) 

> I've never seen a 68k SBC. Have I missed out something along the = way? Is there a community for 68k SBC's? Kind regards, Andrew

There is an active community around DIY 68k SBCs these days. = Some representative examples:

https://www.eejournal.com/article/wallowing-in-68k-nostalgia/
https://www.ist-schlau.de
https://www.bigmessowires.com/category/68katy/
https://github.com/74hc595/68k-nano
http://mc68k.blogspot.com/2012_10_01_archive.html

There are even a couple of fairly advanced 68030 design = floating around:

https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=3Dboards:sbc:gry= phon_68030:start
https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=3Dboards:ecb:kis= s-68030:start

(I have a soft spot for 68k.)

      =   - Dan C.

Well, Rob Pike designed one: http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/blit/

I guess the original hacker scene for the 68K was around Hal = Hardenberg=E2=80=99s newsletter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTACK_Grounded
=
The ready-made 68K SBC=E2=80=99s only arrived 1984-1985:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_QL= (I think Linus Torvalds owned one)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_ST https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_128K
= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_1000

All these machines are rather similar at the hardware level - 68K = processor, RAM shared between CPU and display. Only the Amiga had a = (simple) hardware GPU.

What set the SUN-1 apart was its MMU, which none of the above have.

What influenced the timing was probably that Motorola made the 68K more = affordable by the mid-80=E2=80=99s.

Paul

=

= --Apple-Mail=_DA6DBFF3-9B8E-43EF-A4AF-712C4DA56441--