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[107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p1sm13688550pfn.22.2021.04.04.18.34.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 04 Apr 2021 18:34:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Bakul Shah Message-Id: <9BF72B30-C353-4F61-8DF0-738F8E9536EE@iitbombay.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C42B8852-A69C-408E-BED5-E2A5E544CD9C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 18:34:28 -0700 In-Reply-To: To: Clem Cole References: <584DED5A-1226-4AF7-A191-C34CAFA53686@pobox.com> <20210404022356.GR28660@mcvoy.com> <20210404085520.GA6494@naleco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Subject: Re: [TUHS] Zombified SCO comes back from the dead, brings trial back to life against IBM X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --Apple-Mail=_C42B8852-A69C-408E-BED5-E2A5E544CD9C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Apr 4, 2021, at 4:33 PM, Clem Cole wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 7:01 PM Bakul Shah > wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Apr 4, 2021, at 3:25 PM, David Arnold > wrote: >>=20 >>> For us UNIX historians, we need to be careful and learn from our = own history here -- the Cell Phone/Mobile target is the engine for the = next Christenian style disruption. It is by far the #1 target for = people writing new programs (which I find a little sad personally - but = I understand and accept -- time has marched on). In the end, a small = mobile target will be the tech on top, and available will be driven by = market behavior and those suppliers will be "who has the gold.=E2=80=9D >>=20 >> I feel I should point out that both the dominant mobile operating = systems are Unix-hased. The UI is necessarily new, but astonishingly = the 50 year old basic abstractions are the same. >=20 > Except Unix is kind of hard to see. It wasn't just the hierarchical = file system but the idea of composability. Even now we whip up a shell = "one-liners" to perform some task we just thought of. All that is lost. = And not just on mobile devices. For example search through email = messages for something in an email "app". And no UI composability. We = have to use extremely heavyweight IDEs such as X-Code weighing at 15GB = (even "du -s /Application/X-code" takes tens of seconds!) to = painstakingly construct a UI. We can't just whip up a dashboard to = measure & display some realtime changing process/entity. There may be = equally heavyweight third party tools but there has been no Bell Labs = like research crew to distill it down to the essence of composable UI = and ship it with every copy. The idea that users too can learn to = "program" if given the right tools.=20 >=20 > Exactly my point. The only difference I suspect is I just don't = bother with the IDE (Xcode or VS). Frankly, vi/emacs, or as we = discussed a few days ago, ed is still way more preferable when I'm = programming. Many things are easier to convey visually. It would be neat if unix = paradigms can be extended to visual design as well. And you certainly = can't do visual design easily in vi/emacs. Just like in Autocad you need = both interactivity and programmability for creating visual elements. > I mentioned in another email Intel's new development suite - OneAPI. = Absolutely speaking for myself here, I am a bit at odds with management = WRT to much of it, as I feel the direction is a bit miss guided. But I = do understand why Intel is doing it/trying. Everyone in the industry = seems to be saying "use my Framework, my language, my solution and I = will solve your problem." "You will sell more copies of the program if = you use my portal, etc." Intel to compete, needs to do the same things. = To me, it seems a bit like fairy dust - a promise that will work for = a set of people, and of course, some firms like my own employer will = keep making money (or in the words of the Dr. Sueuss Lorax character: = "Biggering and Biggering." As I said in the previous message, it is = driven by the other golden rule. IMHO a bigger need is some discipline on storage. As things stand, it is = hard to extract data from applications for legitimate uses but not so = hard to extract for illegitimate uses. If app A for some specific domain = dies, there is no guarantee that app B for the same domain can use A's = data. > What I always felt made UNIX powerful was that it did not seem like = the BTL folks were trying to sell anything. They were trying to solve = real problems they and the folks at AT&T had when it came to = realistically building and deploying systems. Yes, there were hidden = from the profit motive at the time because of the unique rules of the = 1956 consent degree and we all were winners because of it because they = say -- sure here you can use it too. Similar conditions existed and exist to a certain extent in research = orgs of some companies but I think that is a necessary condition, not = sufficient. The right research crew can bring in another kind of = interactivity -- in creativity, in trying out and critiquing each = others' ideas and building on them. And you still need the right key = people. > Now that we are back to a winner take all market, (OSVM/360 vs. VMS = vs. winders ...) I think we have traded away designing for the sake of = getting the job done properly, for designing to sell as many as possible = (i.e. be sexy and capture a market, not be simple and do the job well). --Apple-Mail=_C42B8852-A69C-408E-BED5-E2A5E544CD9C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Apr 4, 2021, at 4:33 PM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:


On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 7:01 PM Bakul = Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:


On Apr = 4, 2021, at 3:25 PM, David Arnold <davida@pobox.com> wrote:

 For us UNIX historians, we need to be careful and learn from = our own history here -- the Cell Phone/Mobile target is the engine for = the next Christenian style disruption.  It is by far the #1 = target for people writing new programs (which I find a little sad = personally - but I understand and accept -- time has marched on).  = In the end, a small mobile target will be the tech on top, and available = will be driven by market behavior and those suppliers will be "who has = the gold.=E2=80=9D

I feel I should = point out that both the dominant mobile operating systems are = Unix-hased.  The UI is necessarily new, but astonishingly the 50 = year old basic abstractions are the = same.

Except Unix is kind of hard to see. It wasn't just the = hierarchical file system but the idea of = composability. Even now we whip up a shell "one-liners" to = perform some task we just thought of. All that is lost. And not just on = mobile devices. For example search through email messages for something = in an email "app". And no UI composability. We have to use extremely = heavyweight IDEs such as X-Code weighing at 15GB (even "du -s = /Application/X-code" takes tens of seconds!) to painstakingly construct = a UI. We can't just whip up a dashboard to measure & display some = realtime changing process/entity. There may be equally heavyweight third = party tools but there has been no Bell Labs like = research crew to distill it down to the essence of composable UI and = ship it with every copy. The idea that users too can learn to = "program" if given the right tools. 

Exactly my point.  The only difference I suspect is I = just don't bother with the IDE (Xcode or VS).   Frankly, = vi/emacs, or as we discussed a few days ago, ed is still way more = preferable when I'm = programming.

Many things are easier to convey visually. It = would be neat if unix paradigms can be extended to visual design as = well. And you certainly can't do visual design easily in vi/emacs. Just = like in Autocad you need both interactivity and programmability for = creating visual elements.

I mentioned in another email Intel's new development = suite - OneAPI.  Absolutely speaking for myself here, I am a bit at = odds with management WRT to much of it, as I feel the direction is = a bit miss guided.   But I do understand why Intel is doing = it/trying.   Everyone in the industry seems to be saying "use = my Framework, my language, my solution and I will solve your = problem."  "You will sell more copies of the program if you use my = portal, etc."  Intel to compete, needs to do the same = things.     To me, it seems a bit like fairy dust - = a promise that will work for a set of people, and of course, some firms = like my own employer will keep making money (or in the words of the Dr. = Sueuss Lorax character: "Biggering and Biggering."   As I said = in the previous message, it is driven by the other golden = rule.

IMHO a bigger need is some discipline on storage. = As things stand, it is hard to extract data from applications for = legitimate uses but not so hard to extract for illegitimate uses. If app = A for some specific domain dies, there is no guarantee that app B for = the same domain can use A's data.

What I always felt made UNIX powerful was that it did not = seem like the BTL folks were trying to sell anything.  They were = trying to solve real problems they and the folks at AT&T had when it = came to realistically building and deploying systems.   Yes, = there were hidden from the profit motive at the time because of the = unique rules of the 1956 consent degree and we all were winners because = of it because they say -- sure here you can use it = too.

Similar conditions existed and exist to a certain = extent in research orgs of some companies but I think that is a = necessary condition, not sufficient. The right research crew can bring = in another kind of interactivity -- in creativity, in trying out and = critiquing each others' ideas and building on them. And you still need = the right key people.

Now that we are back to a winner take all market, (OSVM/360 = vs. VMS vs. winders ...) I think we = have traded away designing for the sake of getting the job done = properly, for designing to sell as many as possible (i.e. be sexy and capture a market, not be simple and = do the job well).

= --Apple-Mail=_C42B8852-A69C-408E-BED5-E2A5E544CD9C--