From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 15406 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2023 22:31:36 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 27 Feb 2023 22:31:36 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F94432E2; Tue, 28 Feb 2023 08:31:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: from sasl.smtp.pobox.com (pb-sasl1.pobox.com [64.147.108.66]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FB7B432DC for ; Tue, 28 Feb 2023 08:31:27 +1000 (AEST) Received: from sasl.smtp.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-sasl1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD79E9B43E; Mon, 27 Feb 2023 17:31:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=pobox.com; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=sasl; bh= lMxRhU8sneXHUUrkPfyOfy6Zp4rhOksKXh7jAn8aEZw=; b=tV8EY/pW8j4Nim9e FKRivAfoFGlrJ+4iiuS69WiBaRRWd1RPd4XA+0BaVnt5dzBJmQXco7bWqEVtiIc6 aN3Zae94Ot7Ro0bRRO5f/rEhrD2pMrfMmeM11CvaWysUQLm0coPh2la2BhEiTVCI Q9EHXe8gdj5PhDm3sjbCNZ+3uNQ= Received: from pb-sasl1.nyi.icgroup.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-sasl1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4DA89B43C; Mon, 27 Feb 2023 17:31:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [203.132.93.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pb-sasl1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 255E59B438; Mon, 27 Feb 2023 17:31:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.14\)) From: David Arnold In-Reply-To: <808dd3e1-3706-18d7-8109-4271a328d1c0@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2023 09:31:21 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <58626A0B-EF9C-4920-8E20-CE0C4210BA6A@planet.nl> <808dd3e1-3706-18d7-8109-4271a328d1c0@gmail.com> To: Will Senn X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.14) X-Pobox-Relay-ID: 788323D8-B6EE-11ED-A731-38C66D9B1A4B-29049682!pb-sasl1.pobox.com Message-ID-Hash: NXPBECWUHRBFBUQTJ3E24WCO5KEQND63 X-Message-ID-Hash: NXPBECWUHRBFBUQTJ3E24WCO5KEQND63 X-MailFrom: davida@pobox.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Early GUI on Linux List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: I think this has its roots in the goals for the system. Linux was developed (let=E2=80=99s say, in the pre 2.x era) as a way to = make the PCs that many people could afford into the workstation they = couldn't. There was very little effort to make Linux a better operating system, = let alone a better Unix: it was =E2=80=9Cis it good enough to do what I = can/could do on Solaris at work/college?=E2=80=9D And so, it moved through a pragmatic subset of V7/Minix to a rough = POSIX/Solaris syscall interface, and grew an ecosystem of = cobbled-together userland that enabled that goal. For the vast majority = of its users, X11 was a pre-requisite for serious use: there was = more-or-less zero impetus for a competing UI. Perhaps the closest thing = to it was GNUstep, which to this day, limps along with very little use = (and is implemented over X11 anyway). Look at how drawn-out the adoption of Wayland has been as evidence of = how little interest there has been in alternative graphical models. None of that is a bad thing, per se =E2=80=94 give me Ubuntu 23.04 over = Solaris 2.4 (or even 11) any day: mostly libre, mostly gratis, cheap = hardware, and it just works. d > On 28 Feb 2023, at 07:56, Will Senn wrote: >=20 > Paul, > While the background information on X alternatives is interesting, I = think there's some conflation going on. The distance in time between the = linux kernel being posted and X being available on it was an eyeblink, = even back then. There was no serious effort to look at other windowing = systems in between "hey, what do y'all think of my new kernel - it runs = gnu stuff" to "here it is with X and X apps". >=20 > That said, it was a pain to configure, required just the right mix of = video hardware and other hardware, and wasn't for the faint of heart. As = X was becoming available on linux licketysplit, some folks either = couldn't get it running or didn't have the hardware - those folks were = probably the first to go looking at alternatives, but that didn't = precede the x on linux effort. >=20 > Will >=20 > On 2/25/23 3:31 PM, Paul Ruizendaal wrote: >> I think discussion of early Linux is in scope for this list, after = all that is 30 years ago. Warren, if that is a mis-assumption please = slap my wrist. >>=20 >> Following on from the recent discussion of early workstations and = windowing systems, I=E2=80=99m wondering about early windowing on Linux. = I only discovered Linux in the later nineties (Red Hat 4.x I think), and = by that time Linux already seemed to have settled on Xfree86. At that = time svgalib was still around but already abandoned. >>=20 >> By 1993 even student class PC hardware already outperformed the = workstations of the early/mid eighties, memory was much more abundant = and pixels were no longer bits but bytes (making drawing easier). Also, = early Linux was (I think) more local machine oriented, not LAN oriented. = Maybe a different system than X would have made sense. >>=20 >> In short, I could imagine a frame buffer device and a compositor for = top-level windows (a trail that had been pioneered by Oriel half a = decade before), a declarative widget set inspired by the contemporary = early browsers and the earlier NeWS, etc. Yet nothing like that happened = as far as I know. I vaguely recall an OS from the late 90=E2=80=99s that = mixed Linux with a partly in-kernel GUI called =E2=80=9CBerlin=E2=80=9D = or something like that, but I cannot find any trace of that today, so = maybe I misremember. >>=20 >> So here are a few things that I am interested in and folks on this = list might remember: >>=20 >> - were there any window systems popular on early Linux other than X? >>=20 >> - was there any discussion of alternatives to X? >>=20 >> - was there any discussion of what kernel support for graphics was = appropriate? >>=20 >>=20 >=20