From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 5304 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2023 17:22:48 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 27 Feb 2023 17:22:48 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DF9343261; Tue, 28 Feb 2023 03:22:40 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuhs.org; s=dkim; t=1677518560; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-owner:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=gxHmV4AHDYffTYrG9MfXjqPbYKtp9rsAjO83a8FQeZA=; b=J5tCzcLZqbmyDhfAY96jkwwnWJYIjK/pnQ/Jr+KxYldFvSXFjsXqu7m7Y96DJtzcgddlrX pHSqX+TspIWcg/eXUYDGQSjKWRTS4e1OK1ZIe9PNN1sL6A9MYoKkceuGuW0SxdyVieZatw 95LBT71OQ4Rpf9RcuDKQZLQhLgfsL4E= Received: from ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl (unknown [195.121.94.186]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 460524325E for ; Tue, 28 Feb 2023 03:22:22 +1000 (AEST) X-KPN-MessageId: ee9c67fa-b6c2-11ed-be37-00505699b430 Received: from smtp.kpnmail.nl (unknown [10.31.155.5]) by ewsoutbound.so.kpn.org (Halon) with ESMTPS id ee9c67fa-b6c2-11ed-be37-00505699b430; Mon, 27 Feb 2023 18:19:46 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=planet.nl; s=planet01; h=message-id:to:date:subject:mime-version:content-type:from; bh=gxHmV4AHDYffTYrG9MfXjqPbYKtp9rsAjO83a8FQeZA=; b=HNY1/hXUnulyWmItZnGgzMtidg3SLnSNGk+x3k6B5/d46WAHTvdEQhagScUFnfKeJDQyBNnPoyIOf gUjRrs/2xgaGuVdBxmCcR8zDT8uBIQ4T5E7hPauWXvDHIlhs9cNyJz3JQXksZOEWaKzDuOCvF0xP6s ZpV6u7T5+OXDYevU= X-KPN-MID: 33|fiz2easAl074l6aJjtENyuaViXsBpK+yGhqWydW0UMnyjDDMDq7rzJBY62xN1Mp M+mbf/2erSlijtwfaWU0LpxJnhMyurmkcQj2l5C7U8n4= X-KPN-VerifiedSender: Yes X-CMASSUN: 33|3zg9AupKis5RkxwlweRM+LB0+Qlg13hBvOl1Ctgyc4ltoRqqiP3OU3NH7sCuZcp bYbnJOmeUktWdBcCOq4iSHw== X-Originating-IP: 46.253.188.28 Received: from smtpclient.apple (46-253-188-28.dynamic.monzoon.net [46.253.188.28]) by smtp.kpnmail.nl (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 443c4720-b6c3-11ed-9e25-00505699b758; Mon, 27 Feb 2023 18:22:10 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2023 18:22:09 +0100 References: <58626A0B-EF9C-4920-8E20-CE0C4210BA6A@planet.nl> To: "tuhs@tuhs.org" In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Message-ID-Hash: VDOTLDB47GDONQ6P5ITVD4FTJADZ7ADC X-Message-ID-Hash: VDOTLDB47GDONQ6P5ITVD4FTJADZ7ADC X-MailFrom: pnr@planet.nl X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Early GUI on Linux List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: From: Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS Reply-To: Paul Ruizendaal Thanks all for the insights. Let me attempt a summary. What it boils down to is that X arrived on Linux very early, because = what the Linux hackers needed/wanted was a familiar terminal = multiplexer. It seems that the pattern persists till the present day = (and yes, it matches with my own dev setup/needs). I wonder to what = extent this is a generational thing though. Maybe today=E2=80=99s = twenty-somethings spend their days in front of Xcode, VStudio, Eclipse, = etc. more than using multiple terminals. This ties in with another observation on early window systems. The = earliest Unix window system that I could find (i.e. documented) was = NUnix from 1981/82. Its desktop was designed around the idea of a dozen = or so top level windows, each one being either a shell window or a = graphics canvas, with no real concept of a widget set, dialogs, etc., or = even of sub-windows. This paradigm seems to have been more or less the = same in the Blit terminal, and carried through in MGR, Mux and even as = late as 8 1/2. In the context where this serves the needs of core user = group, such makes sense. =3D=3D=3D It is in stark contrast with developments at the lower/consumer end of = the market. The original Mac, GEM and Windows all placed much more = emphasis on being a graphical user interface, with standard widgets and = UI design elements. On Unix and X it remained a mess. It seems that this = was both for technical reasons (X not imposing a standard) and for = economic reasons (the Unix wars). Linux then inherited the mess and the = core user/developer demographic had no need/wish/time to fix it. It makes me wonder when true graphical applications started to appear = for X / Unix / Linux (other than stuff like terminal, clock, calculator, = etc.). The graphical browser certainly is one (1993). StarOffice and = Applix seem to have arrived around 1995. Anything broadly used before = that?