From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 19933 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2022 01:20:20 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 20 Dec 2022 01:20:20 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EFFF42383; Tue, 20 Dec 2022 11:20:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 793804237E for ; Tue, 20 Dec 2022 11:20:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E2535C0124; Mon, 19 Dec 2022 20:20:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 19 Dec 2022 20:20:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=serissa.com; h= cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:date:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm1; t=1671499208; x= 1671585608; bh=UnQiFZzaV91ZXs1pUBCCj4q10sHIMw5CgRX9VJfAyL0=; b=V 0mKNs3lYVznHhTBCd6RAfGPMN4nFtpdAxNN5V/gNGcc4Fcr/e7viflsmh8F0HWzU hdWI+W1JhSWArBVHK3mbXbpsy7Y6n7fRyJS1ciiDSzuPAktDWHgVGZGY9+9Reo2n +coMFFWhXvkNeeSt1GVkh5EN+Ry7iXtMh0/EVwmKXMhAGk4Vji/0gdTLeRfstCA5 cHXLNbS3UL1PjAZaErccsFT9VGvp86OklNuRkOO+xmyAggM97vy9swzqhoRUYLYT BG8OAbmhbtK2uzeWfl0mpYcpytY8/94KK4MYhJYOKfA5SI41LkXZYJrjui2OU1y0 5zo5MiX2qB/ooGVk3pd4g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; t=1671499208; x= 1671585608; bh=UnQiFZzaV91ZXs1pUBCCj4q10sHIMw5CgRX9VJfAyL0=; b=e w23wUhedgFqRYaHjLilKVA7L8J6Xou6mFYmDpujUr8uxxQos76xRZ5t6OFQR8Duh oVo+7o8Ad1C+EPNJWB84Hv7Q4kJ0dKh2b80VSgJyZkEpM4ClWzwVNbEVFjvB6icq OdDrGGnoKiRzYyl6Szy1RY3yxNY7G4IWSMDYi3KmqUrSaYTziCzOsEkApMpgFv0l HFILv5+06fgwDXAGQrytwn8K1o5CXMpJFgWRV0a9Pc+b844jyTE8dkBQ9jmsnZkj aSI7bscM8Ai8YnjoYSg5scISpw9CPaz0RpOD4Pi8oyjTtSn7k/6950RtT1hu+Rmw vUfwMFmho6DxfXZDirrsg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvhedrgeeggdefgecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtgffhggfufffkfhevjgfvofesrgejmherhhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepnfgrrhhr hicuufhtvgifrghrthcuoehsthgvfigrrhhtsehsvghrihhsshgrrdgtohhmqeenucggtf frrghtthgvrhhnpedvleduvddvfefhfeethfeuuefhgfdvtefhheeiffegueefgeefieff vedvleegieenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhroh hmpehsthgvfigrrhhtsehsvghrihhsshgrrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: ibf61458d:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 19 Dec 2022 20:20:08 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-DBA1CC6E-8893-4D18-8CF0-CDAB07F7855F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Larry Stewart Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 20:20:07 -0500 Message-Id: References: In-Reply-To: To: Clem Cole X-Mailer: iPad Mail (19G82) Message-ID-Hash: V5KNL3FM3QNJXR2F5MFG4ZI2JBIDSRQD X-Message-ID-Hash: V5KNL3FM3QNJXR2F5MFG4ZI2JBIDSRQD X-MailFrom: stewart@serissa.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: segaloco , tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: UNIX on (not quite bare) System/370 List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --Apple-Mail-DBA1CC6E-8893-4D18-8CF0-CDAB07F7855F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I forget if I've mentioned this here before, so apologies in advance. I never met Reiser, but I ran across his PhD thesis (for Knuth!). It was 35= pages (!) on random number generators. I implemented one for my own work. = It was pretty clear he was one of those people who is smarter than the res= t of us. -Larry > On Dec 19, 2022, at 6:03 PM, Clem Cole wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >=20 >> On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 4:20 PM Rob Pike wrote: >> Quite a bit of this feels not exactly wrong, but not quite right. (And hi= s name is John Reiser, not Reisner.) > Thank you. Never assume I will get spelling right ;-) >=20 > =20 >> Steve Johnson didn't go to work in development until the mid 1980s, for e= xample, long after these bloodlines as you call them were laid down. > Yes, I know. I did not mean to imply this -- only that we have discussed m= uch of this and Steve has offered comments as a manager. >=20 > =20 >>=20 >> Do we know that PWB became USG? That doesn't feel right to me, although i= t might well be true, I wasn't there. > I was not either, although very close friends with a few that were. My ol= d lab partner in hacking, the late Ted Kowalski and Armando Stettner were of= ficemates in Summit in USG in the late 1970s - who are the primary sources o= f data I have from that time. Mashey is the other (and I think we have an o= ld email from John in the archives). >=20 > The problem you are getting too is exactly what I was referring BTW. It w= as not a straight line. >=20 > Some facts ... PWB 1.0 was created and release before USG would be created= . Again look at the old messages here. What I don't know is who packaged= PWB 2.0 -- I was under the impression that was still Mashey et al (as you s= aid Whippany a few other NJ labs - although the USG folks must have just bee= n created). =20 >=20 > IIRC the kernel in PWB 2.0 and V7 are close, but not the same and definite= ly the userspaces are different. >=20 > TS starts to could thing, and the best I personally can tell (again from o= ld message from Ted Armando et al), at some point TS was being created - may= be around 1978ish. How much of V7 went into TS and vice versa - is not cl= ear. So far, I do not believe we have found a definitive TS 'distribution' -= but a number of things seem to be a part. Werner I think can add the most c= olor here, as he researched it., a bit more than I did. Again, the best, I c= an tell is that something approximating TS 1.0 was created (in Summit >>I be= lieve<<) and it had a common kernel with V7. Who got it and how it was dist= ributed it not completely understood -- again AT&T politics, the consent dec= ree et al, all mix this up. >=20 > Tick, tick, tick ... Judge Green does his thing ... >=20 > PWB 3.0 was released to the OCs at some point. During a discussions AT= &T NC (Al Arms et al) had with customers (like me), we had memos created by U= SG that are marked PWB 3.0 that discussed what was going to be in the releas= e. AT&T North Carolina (the lawyers and marketing folks) gave them to us. = I personally was part of the negotiation associated with that license had a= few of those memos at one point. They were clearly marked PWB 3.0 and wer= e originally created the OCs distribution.=20 >=20 > AT&T was now in the computer market and the marketing/sales types and did= not like the name Programmmer Workbench - when going against IBM [who was c= learly the target]. It was also made clear to us (commercial UNIX licensees= ) that whatever was produced, would not be the named PWBct when the AT&T Mar= keting folks released it publically -- it seems to me that they were working= trademarking in parallel with the pricing/licensing negotiation that I was a= part.=20 >=20 > I >>believe<< that is why the manuals were printed saying 3.0 - but Summit= did not yet know what the name would be - although they did release PWB 3.0= inside of the Bell System. Eventually, the name 'System III' was picked b= y AT&T NC and the marketing blitz started -- "Consider it standard," etc.. >=20 > FWIW: John Mashey is the source of the comment about PWB bloodline begets S= ummits work.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 >> I think of it as mostly staying in Whippany, not going to Summit. Also yo= ur prose would imply USG never got to V7 level, which is certainly not true.= > Not at all. I was not trying to imply that in any way. >=20 >=20 > =20 >> Columbus's major contribution, as we saw it from Research, was the world'= s second most complex init. > systemd was yet to be created ;-) >=20 >=20 > =20 >> All these variants lobbied to have Research adopt things, as such approva= l was seen as a badge of honor. Honestly, though, it was all pretty toxic. > That is the impression I had. >=20 > =20 >>=20 >> Reiser and London's Unix, which I greatly admired, died on the vine for a= variety of political reasons, as well as because it had slightly different s= emantics in some important cases, and because of a broad antipathy to virtua= l memory across the company due to various people having used VM on inadequa= te hardware, and of course then there was Multics. > Again - that syncs with my comments and my memory of the time. >=20 > =20 >> Sandy Fraser was very nervous about Research adopting the BSD kernel beca= use of his experience with Atlas. But let it be said: Reiser's VM system was= seriously impressive, cleanly integrated, structurally central, and wonderf= ully fast. > I never ran it, but that does seem to be the report. >=20 > Question for you Rob ... SVR3 was a rewrite the memory system from earlier= things called 'System V'. Do you know if any of Reiser's stuff make it in= to that or was SVR3 a new stream altogether and who did it? Tom Bishop lea= d me to believe that some of Reiser's stuff was imported into the SSI system= they did in IH. But again what went where and who did what has never been c= learly understood. >=20 > And that was my point -- there was never a linear progression. >=20 > =20 >> And Sandy relented but the general warmth of 1127 towards Berkeley led to= Research adopting Berkeley Unix as its VAX VM platform, despite some, inclu= ding myself, feeling that was the inferior choice. > Indeed and not the first time we have heard that said here.=20 > =E1=90=A7 --Apple-Mail-DBA1CC6E-8893-4D18-8CF0-CDAB07F7855F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I f= orget if I've mentioned this here before, so apologies in advance.

I never met Reiser, but I ran across= his PhD thesis (for Knuth!).  It was 35 pages (!) on random number gen= erators.  I implemented one for my own work.   It was pretty clear= he was one of those people who is smarter than the rest of us.

-Larry

On Dec 19, 2022, at 6:03 PM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com= > wrote:

=EF=BB=BF


On Mon, Dec 19, 2= 022 at 4:20 PM Rob Pike <robpike@gma= il.com> wrote:
Quite a bit= of this feels not exactly wrong, but not quite right. (And his name is John= Reiser, not Reisner.)
Thank you.  Never= assume I will get spelling right ;-)

 
Steve Johnson didn't go to work in development u= ntil the mid 1980s, for example, long after these bloodlines as you call the= m were laid down.
Yes, I know.  I did not= mean to imply this -- only that we have discussed much of this and Steve ha= s offered comments as a manager.

 

Do we know that PWB became USG? That doesn't feel right to me, although it m= ight well be true, I wasn't there.
I was not e= ither, although very close friends with a few that were.  My o= ld lab partner in hacking, the late Ted Kowalski and Armando Stettner were o= fficemates in Summit in USG in the late 1970s - who are the primary sourc= es of data I have from that time.   Mashey is the other (and I thi= nk we have an old email from John in the archives).
=
=
The pro= blem you are getting too is exactly what I was referring BTW.  It was n= ot a straight line.

Some facts ... PWB 1= .0 was created and release before USG would be created.   Again lo= ok at the old messages here.   What I don't know is who packaged P= WB 2.0 -- I was under the impression that was still Mashey et al (as you sai= d Whippany a few other NJ labs - although the USG folks must have just been c= reated).   

IIRC the kernel in PWB 2.0 and V7 a= re close, but not the same and definitely the userspaces are different.=

TS starts to could thing, and the best I personally can t= ell (again from old message from Ted Armando et al), at some point TS was be= ing created - maybe around 1978ish.    How much of V7 went into TS= and vice versa - is not clear.  So far, I do not believe we have found= a definitive TS 'distribution' - but a number of things seem to be a part.&= nbsp; Werner I think can add the most color here, as he researched it., a bi= t more than I did.  Again, the best, I can tell is that something appro= ximating TS 1.0 was created (in Summit >>I believe<<) and it had= a common kernel with V7.  Who got it and how it was distributed it not= completely understood -- again AT&T politics, the consent decree et al,= all mix this up.

Tick, tick, tick ...  Judge Green d= oes his thing ...

PWB 3.0 was released to the OCs at some= point.     During a discussions AT&T NC (Al Ar= ms et al) had with customers (like me), we had memos created by USG that are= marked PWB 3.0 that discussed what was going to be in the release.&nbs= p; AT&T North Carolina (the lawyers and marketing folks) gave them to us= .    I personally was part of the negotiation associated with= that license had a few of those memos at one point.   They were c= learly marked PWB 3.0 and were originally created the OCs distribution.=  

 AT&T was now in the computer market and t= he marketing/sales types and did not like the name Programmmer Workbenc= h - when going against IBM [who was clearly the target].  It was also m= ade clear to us (commercial UNIX licensees) that whatever was produced, woul= d not be the named PWBct when the AT&T Marketing folks release= d it publically -- it seems to me that they were working trademarking in par= allel with the pricing/licensing negotiation that I was a part. 
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"= >
I >>believe<< that is why the manuals were printed s= aying 3.0 - but Summit did not yet know what the name would be - although th= ey did release PWB 3.0 inside of the Bell System.   Eventually, th= e name 'System III' was picked by AT&T NC and the marketing blitz starte= d -- "Consider it standard," etc..

FWIW: John Mashey is th= e source of the comment about PWB bloodline begets Summits work. 
=


 
I think of it as mostly staying in Whippany, not going to Sum= mit. Also your prose would imply USG never got to V7 level, which is certain= ly not true.
Not at all.  I was not tryi= ng to imply that in any way.


 
=
Columbus's major contribution, as we saw i= t from Research, was the world's second most complex init.
systemd was yet to be created ;-)


 
All these variants lob= bied to have Research adopt things, as such approval was seen as a badge of h= onor. Honestly, though, it was all pretty toxic.
That is the impression I had.

 

Reiser and London's Unix, which I greatly admired, died on the vine for a v= ariety of political reasons, as well as because it had slightly different se= mantics in some important cases, and because of a broad antipathy to virtual= memory across the company due to various people having used VM on inadequat= e hardware, and of course then there was Multics.
<= div>
Again - that syncs with my comments and my memory of the time.
 
Sandy Fraser was v= ery nervous about Research adopting the BSD kernel because of his experience= with Atlas. But let it be said: Reiser's VM system was seriously impressive= , cleanly integrated, structurally central, and wonderfully fast.
I never ran it, but that does seem to be the report.

Question for you Rob ... SVR3 was a rewrite the memory sys= tem from earlier things called 'System V'.   Do you know if any of= Reiser's stuff make it into that or was SVR3 a new stream altogether and wh= o did it?   Tom Bishop lead me to believe that some of Reiser= 's stuff was imported into the SSI system they did in IH. But again what wen= t where and who did what has never been clearly understood.

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"= >And that was my point -- there was never a linear progression.

 
And Sandy relented but= the general warmth of 1127 towards Berkeley led to Research adopting Berkel= ey Unix as its VAX VM platform, despite some, including myself, feeling that= was the inferior choice.
Indeed and not= the first time we have heard that said here. 
=
3D""=E1=90=A7
= --Apple-Mail-DBA1CC6E-8893-4D18-8CF0-CDAB07F7855F--