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[107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w24-20020a170902d71800b001b89b7e208fsm14477985ply.88.2023.08.03.07.20.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 03 Aug 2023 07:20:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Bakul Shah Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_29836588-6CC2-429D-BB97-398617E363B8" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.600.7\)) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2023 07:19:58 -0700 In-Reply-To: To: Rob Pike References: <8246.1690761540@cesium.clock.org> <29602.1690887524@cesium.clock.org> <20230803005106.GA12652@mcvoy.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.600.7) Message-ID-Hash: Y55E2DZJHF6QUHT2BFT2II4TNQWA22OV X-Message-ID-Hash: Y55E2DZJHF6QUHT2BFT2II4TNQWA22OV X-MailFrom: bakul@iitbombay.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: python List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --Apple-Mail=_29836588-6CC2-429D-BB97-398617E363B8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I have not heard such horror stories about Common Lisp (or may be I have = forgotten them!). My impression is that python doesn't quite have the = kind of {meta,}programming tools Common Lisp has. CL has been used for = large critical programs. Perhaps Von Rossum had more experience with = statically typed languages than Lisp (because -- pure speculation here = -- if he had used CL enough, he would never have designed python :-) > On Aug 3, 2023, at 1:32 AM, Rob Pike wrote: >=20 > I once inherited maintenance of a critical piece of infrastructure = written in exquisitely well written, tested, and documented Python. I = mean it, it was really really good. >=20 > It crashed about once a week and I had to fix it over and over because = in those exponentially vast combinations of paths through the code would = arise yet another way to turn a string into a list, or something = analogous. It was hell. >=20 > Critical code needs static typing. >=20 > -rob >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 1:56=E2=80=AFPM Bakul Shah > wrote: >> python can certainly implement tail call optimization (TCO). Pretty = much any language can implement TCO but for some reason people think = such programs are harder to debug (and yet they don't similarly complain = about loops!). The beauty of Scheme was that it *mandated* tail = recursion.=20 >>=20 >> > On Aug 2, 2023, at 8:24 PM, George Michaelson > wrote: >> >=20 >> > Tail recursion not lazy eval. >> >=20 >> > I wish words meant what I meant "inside" when I think them, not >> > "outside" what they mean when I write them. >>=20 --Apple-Mail=_29836588-6CC2-429D-BB97-398617E363B8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I have not = heard such horror stories about Common Lisp (or may be I have forgotten = them!). My impression is that python doesn't quite have the kind of = {meta,}programming tools Common Lisp has. CL has been used for large = critical programs. Perhaps Von Rossum had more experience with = statically typed languages than Lisp (because -- pure speculation here = -- if he had used CL enough, he would never have designed python = :-)

On Aug 3, = 2023, at 1:32 AM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

I once = inherited maintenance of a critical piece of infrastructure written in = exquisitely well written, tested, and documented Python. I mean it, it = was really really good.

It = crashed about once a week and I had to fix it over and over because in = those exponentially vast combinations of paths through the code would = arise yet another way to turn a string into a list, or something = analogous. It was hell.

Critical = code needs static typing.

-rob


On Thu, Aug = 3, 2023 at 1:56=E2=80=AFPM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> = wrote:
python can certainly implement tail = call optimization (TCO). Pretty much any language can implement TCO but = for some reason people think such programs are harder to debug (and yet = they don't similarly complain about loops!). The beauty of Scheme was = that it *mandated* tail recursion.

> On Aug 2, 2023, at 8:24 PM, George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org> wrote:
>
> Tail recursion not lazy eval.
>
> I wish words meant what I meant "inside" when I think them, not
> "outside" what they mean when I write them.


= --Apple-Mail=_29836588-6CC2-429D-BB97-398617E363B8--