From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, MIME_HTML_ONLY,MIME_HTML_ONLY_MULTI,MIME_QP_LONG_LINE,MPART_ALT_DIFF, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38A692A46C for ; Wed, 5 Jun 2024 21:18:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8DEA43329; Thu, 6 Jun 2024 05:18:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32e.google.com (mail-wm1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32e]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ADB2743328 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 2024 05:18:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-42155143bb6so2350845e9.1 for ; Wed, 05 Jun 2024 12:18:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1717615083; x=1718219883; darn=tuhs.org; h=to:in-reply-to:cc:references:message-id:date:subject:mime-version :from:content-transfer-encoding:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=G0gC7EiBfuAsFG/tTGcT+LACyQPHKSwQFiGcW/h18G8=; b=Ha32Ei0ST+5Q+rOx56zi7KY8bTq2mMtD/7brJeadgZM0iYKOoWxVlHfRp4KGGi71JW dQ1p/PaptgaQ7U/WeeAziJHmU7dS4Y95lKAeQ9rENDXi4M1i9AHo+WfWogiduasyGiW2 JHIHf3j8QqYGetCNIdCSNBUaWsrC+thhglOqCGNJ52AaMlSOpBmw9bZAkMxHrc2hRxkw pfLIO9jD6ccp+g+J1z0nSs7iKOeT0Y4QdKF8AkIrYh2KLOlRRgFYE541bMJe4IqlwA5B eVv0mKaOpca2AvIUqEB3dc2c8EYySaBIl4Lh74TthSkw6ydJSTLSZShEX3ccXA3/jM6o nt3Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1717615083; x=1718219883; h=to:in-reply-to:cc:references:message-id:date:subject:mime-version :from:content-transfer-encoding:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=G0gC7EiBfuAsFG/tTGcT+LACyQPHKSwQFiGcW/h18G8=; b=uIZY0Q0k4O18y7UzI0NI97B2JJ9xvIRrnIwH/EMBdWzWzT9brNMGxpHrJJHDnq3mGg HG20vLGUh5nllQt2XOrI/Sv8e58dA0M65EjvBaiV8fb6a/MAZCP91ZATS+MJ1tOO9ptC LvMbIf6xwKM0X4omSE3Waw5Yrh6ygsAlgtmUzSSCMqq5BLSp0l+Exyt0kc7EfHUXULvO XHpIbXdM49Jq1TOdRYKTrn01dAnm//fvHD5suW/uFNWl63anKkLmpwpvoAFsl/VqG6lb ys9JstkI1Wspaiiqy1QUiEFsPSUfOJZeDn3j8ni8wTp7CqkCmfC7YAAp8NLM0YPgKZe7 XVTA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWyjD8TuLpMQgbrcXvjgv6buJXntH/sEehkY3z2kHWZp9Yth0EMIZMgD1j7wjzwaTxDJlHi2aGR/w+rY6pz X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzSHnvOJMHZIlHkxf/43S/HYt11f9/y4q73S7RghrBX3PTbvMti OMOBt66sV4n3ycTUuacOixpcYWGuY22h9Sxhi2vJ2w0n4gT7B8b3G68FpA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IH9CyzTESrkw1Tg5vO4fVA8pkT51V1uACEhWLzAXgr5F/LR93ZrguW+i5u/oxFG/VLg5Ii3jg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:19c7:b0:421:58f2:3568 with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-42158f236a5mr17932765e9.5.1717615082569; Wed, 05 Jun 2024 12:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (cpc1-benw13-2-0-cust952.16-2.cable.virginm.net. [86.8.55.185]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5b1f17b1804b1-4215813d0a7sm31444225e9.45.2024.06.05.12.18.02 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 05 Jun 2024 12:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-37C1BB59-F246-43F8-9CC0-EF049E6D6AFD Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jeffrey Joshua Rollin Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 20:17:51 +0100 Message-Id: References: In-Reply-To: To: Warner Losh X-Mailer: iPad Mail (21F90) Message-ID-Hash: 2MISYGD65FB3AEJR7DWLEWNPIJGZYGFK X-Message-ID-Hash: 2MISYGD65FB3AEJR7DWLEWNPIJGZYGFK X-MailFrom: jefftwopointzero@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Will Senn , segaloco , Andrew Lynch , TUHS Main List X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: most direct Unix descendant List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --Apple-Mail-37C1BB59-F246-43F8-9CC0-EF049E6D6AFD Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I concede the point, and thanks for the cor= rection. I was going from memory of things I=E2=80=99d read a while ago. So,= that does make my claim that NetBSD is the closest thing a little weaker, w= hilst strengthening FreeBSD=E2=80=99s. 

Jeff
Sent from my iPad

On 5 Jun 2024, at 19:41, Warner= Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF


On Wed, Jun 5, 202= 4, 11:23=E2=80=AFAM Jeffrey Joshua Rollin <jefftwopointzero@gmail.com> wrote:
Following this line of thought, - and with the disclaim= er that my own personal existence begins roughly where what has been called =E2= =80=9CThe Last True UNIX=E2=80=9D [Seventh Edition] ends, I=E2=80=99d say th= at, if ESR - who I know can be controversial - is correct, =E2=80=9CBSD won i= n the marketplace, but System V won the standards wars=E2=80=9D or words to t= hat effect.

With that in mind, and given that NetBSD was forked from 386BSD and in turn g= ave rise to the other BSDs around today,

That is not true. FreeBSD imported the 38= 6BSD plus patchkit patches into its CVS tree. It did not inport NetBSD's sou= rce, though NetBSD did import the same sources into their CVS repo days (or m= aybe weeks) earlier.  Much of this early history, though, is not widely= available as the early NetBSD and FreeBSD CVS repos are not available in th= eir original form due to the AT&T lawsuit.

And then the redo of these groups of the 4.4BSD import= , the 4.4BSD-lite and lite 2 rebased both projects further muddy the waters s= ince they now were both based on approximately the same pure from CSRG sourc= es, rendering the earlier messiness perhaps moot. Or perhaps not, but not a p= oint that has universal agreement, even among those involved in doing the wo= rk.

It also gets muddy be= cause of the original patchkit authors also spintered to for both NetBSD and= FreeBSD in a way that's most kindly described as messy, so much spin was br= oadcast to characterize who was first or best. The truth is that the split w= as messy and definitive statements around this are troublesome at best.

Warner

it would be my candidate for =E2=80=9Cmost direct descendant avail= able today,=E2=80=9D particularly if we=E2=80=99re talking wide availability= . (Whilst V1-6 and beyond were of course only available to users of business= and academic mainframes and minicomputers, I=E2=80=99d argue that the other= two contenders, Solaris and HP-UX, are sufficiently rare in comparison to t= he availability even of the open source BSD=E2=80=99s that the word =E2=80=9C= available=E2=80=9D would be doing some rather heavy lifting if I were to inc= lude them.) The BSDs (except macOS and whatever SCO=E2=80=99s cash cow is ca= lled this evening) are also open source, of course, which is inline with the= spirit of early Unix.

I=E2=80=99ve not done an audit - and am not qualified to - but I suspect the= main objection to this line of thinking is that despite the fact it still r= uns on VAX, it would not surprise me in the least to find that (excluding co= mments, perhaps), not a single line of code remains the same in NetBSD 10 (a= nd indeed several versions prior) to the equivalent in V7 - and again, I=E2=80= =99ve no idea how much of V1 remains in V7, nor (other than knowing it was w= ritten in assembly) how closely early PDP-11 versions resembled PDP-7 versio= ns. By then, I suspect we really are getting into the Ship of Theseus proble= m - as the ancient Greeks would have been familiar with the issue, by the ti= me every single plank of Theseus=E2=80=99 Ship has been replaced because the= old ones have decayed, is it really the Ship of Theseus anymore?

Plus of course, though it=E2=80=99s more a legal issue than a philosophical o= ne, not only at least one version of Mach-based macOS, but also one distribu= tion  of Linux - which is known not to contain either Minix or UNIX cod= e - have been certified as UNIX by The Open Group.

My 2c

Jeff

Sent from my iPhone

> On 5 Jun 2024, at 18:51, Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrot= e:
>
> =EF=BB=BFOn 6/5/24 12:34 PM, segaloco via TUHS wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, June 5th, 2024 at 3:17 AM, Andrew Lynch via TUHS &= lt;tuh= s@tuhs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> Out of curiosity, what would be considered the most direct desc= endent of Unix available today?
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Thanks, Andrew Lynch
>> snip
>> Given this, my humble opinion (which again this sort of thing I bel= ieve is largely a philosophical matter of opinion...) is that the BSD line c= aptures the spirit of Research UNIX much more than System V does, while Syst= em V retains much more of the source code lineage of what most folks would c= onsider a "pure" UNIX.  Of course all of this too is predicated on trea= ting V7 (really 32V...) as that central point of divergence.
> When I saw this thread appear, I was of two minds about it, but this li= nes up with where my thoughts were headed. I've done a lot of delving into t= he v6/v7 environments over the last 10 years or so and it feels much closer i= n kinship to BSD derivatives than to SysV... source code lineages aside. Als= o, I get more mileage out of my BSD books and docs than those treating SysV.= I'd vote for *BSD as sticking closest to the unix way, if there is still su= ch a thing... I say this as I just typed 'kldload linux64' into freebsd's te= rminal so I could run sublime alongside nvi... sometimes I wish I was a puri= st, but I'm way too fond of experimentation :).
>
> Will
= --Apple-Mail-37C1BB59-F246-43F8-9CC0-EF049E6D6AFD--