From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 18945 invoked from network); 18 Sep 2022 04:41:24 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 18 Sep 2022 04:41:24 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C92C409F5; Sun, 18 Sep 2022 14:41:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from pasta.tip.net.au (pasta.tip.net.au [203.10.76.2]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F036409E4 for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2022 14:41:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (unknown [203.7.122.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailhost.tip.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4MVZqh0qY2z9QL4; Sun, 18 Sep 2022 14:40:30 +1000 (AEST) From: steve jenkin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2022 14:39:59 +1000 Message-Id: To: TUHS X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Message-ID-Hash: IRIZNXU23GEOUMS3M2FCXU2AEOY32CF3 X-Message-ID-Hash: IRIZNXU23GEOUMS3M2FCXU2AEOY32CF3 X-MailFrom: sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Unix timelines List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: In 2007 I started entering the contents of Eric Levenez=E2=80=99s = =E2=80=9CUnix History=E2=80=9D diagram into =E2=80=9Cdot=E2=80=9D format = to use with Graphviz. It stalled when I was unable to create a diagram I really liked. My recollection is that I talked with Warren about encoding this data = and creating diagrams. He compiled the TUHS =E2=80=9CUnix Tree=E2=80=9D, presumably now the = definitive resource, but I haven=E2=80=99t see a diagram linked from = there. There=E2=80=99s the github =E2=80=9CUnix History=E2=80=9D project by = TUHS list folk I didn=E2=80=99t research producing timelines & relationships = automatically from git: this would be a solid solution, if the Repo was considered as = permanent as the TUHS site. The =E2=80=9CLinux Distribution Timeline=E2=80=9D is based on a tool, = gnuclad, that takes CSV files and 'computes a cladogram=E2=80=99 in SVG. = conversion to PNG is via ImageMagick=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Cconvert=E2=80=9D. By default, timelines are produced =E2=80=98left to right=E2=80=99, with = claimed =E2=80=98right to left=E2=80=99, =E2=80=99top to bottom=E2=80=99 = and =E2=80=98bottom to top=E2=80=99 formats - which I haven=E2=80=99t = tested. The CSV file can include links which are built into clickable points in = the final image, at least for SVG, unsure of PNG. A concern that I have is the creation of the CSV file from Distrowatch = is opaque. Possibly built by hand. New diagrams are uploaded 2-3 times a = year. The Levenez "fishbone" diagram doesn=E2=80=99t seem to be updated with = Warner Losh=E2=80=99s 2020 =E2=80=9CHidden Early History=E2=80=9D. Clem Cole=E2=80=99s Big Block diagram shows =E2=80=9Clow-res=E2=80=9D = diagrams are also very useful, eliminating distracting detail when = appropriate. Groklaw from 2004-2009 tried to collect information about the Unix/Linux = Timelines, but the site is gone now & Wayback machine hasn=E2=80=99t = picked up many of the detail / comments page. I=E2=80=99ve no contact with PJ & whoever runs Groklaw now. Would that data collection contain anything more than TUHS, as it does = try to include both Linux and Unix? Any suggestions? Something extra in the Linux Distro Tree is a notation for people moving = between projects and tracking forks. Unsure how that=E2=80=99s = accomplished, and not sure how important that is for Unixes. TUHS is =E2=80=9CEarly Unix=E2=80=9D, not about Linux. However, some degree of compatibility between Unix & Linux Timeline = diagrams might be useful for others if they ever try to join multiple = trees. If a timeline / relationship table is constructed, designing it to be = somewhat compatible will help future people. I=E2=80=99m not sure about tracking the many descendants of BSD. = Wikipedia has a list without a timeline . = Someone may already be being doing this somewhere, I didn=E2=80=99t = look. Don=E2=80=99t think modern descendants of BSD should be tracked by a = Unix Heritage Society, has to be a boundary somewhere. regards steve jenkin =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Some Questions: 1. Is there any benefit in developing a canonical =E2=80=9CUnix = Timeline=E2=80=9D dataset containing the relationships, allowing = programatic conversion to diagrams? There might be better tools in the = future. I=E2=80=99d favour tab-separated text files, because they can be = read / written by Spreadsheets and converted to CSV. Warren=E2=80=99s solution of tables & pages is good: there=E2=80=99= s simply too much information & complexity to capture in simple file = formats The gnuclad solution of providing =E2=80=9CClickable Links=E2=80=9D= is useful, if like TUHS, the pages are well maintained. 2. How to cater for: - adding extra-fine detail for segments of the timeline (Warner = Losh) - =E2=80=98zooming out=E2=80=99 and providing an overview (Clem = Cole) - some sort of compatibility with known tables, like Linux = Distro Timeline 3. No simple representation can, or should try, to be =E2=80=9Call = things to all people=E2=80=9D, there=E2=80=99s too much detail and too = many events occurred. Is there a useful subset of detail that can be captured in a = simple table? There may be useful subsets of the Unix Timeline that show more = or less detail, To support programatic zoom In/Out, an indent or level = descriptor is required in the table. Does anyone have a good data model for that? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Warner Losh, "Hidden Early History of Unix=E2=80=9D, Fosdem 2020 -> "Standard History of Unix, in 3 slides=E2=80=9D=20 graphviz, coloured names, landscape format [small] =E2=80=9CSimplified family tree=E2=80=9D 4th Edition Family Tree 6th Edition Family Tree 7th Edition Family Tree Clem Cole, UNIX, Linux and BSD, USENIX 2009, reexamining "A Short UNIX = History=E2=80=9D, 2000 talk -> "A UNIX Family History 1st 25 Yrs=E2=80=9D [69-93] graphviz ?, landscape, coloured, triangle symbols, thin = lines & arrows -> Simplified Linux Family Tree, circa =E2=80=9909 graphviz ?, landscape, coloured, blocks + text, short = thick lines & arrows =09 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D TUHS, The Unix Tree No diagrams, tarball with all content =C3=89ric L=C3=A9v=C3=A9nez=E2=80=99s, "UNIX History=E2=80=9D landscape format [very wide], lines & arrows, hand drawn, no = source David du Colombier, Unix Diagram portrait format, graphviz, source Linux Timeline, Fabio Loli et al landscape format, gnuclad, source (CSV + links to = ) uses =E2=80=98curved=E2=80=99 lines, can be changed Images: SVG, PNG = Grokline, UNIX TIMELINE, 2004-2009 [dead site] Lists by Date, Vendor, Product detail pages not archived = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -- Steve Jenkin, IT Systems and Design=20 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 38, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA mailto:sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin